Viv Richards & Allan Donald vs Brian Lara & Curtly Ambrose

[kyear2]

Now I'm mad at Compton

But isn't it a fair critique?

 

[Johan]

But isn't it a fair critique?

it's an okay critique but I feel like you can apply a critique as trivial as that to any of the BAB club really

 

[kyear2]

@subshakerz

A gem I found from 2013 that you might enjoy.

And quite consistent, over 11 years and only two changes.

Wasim Akram took less than 4WPM, had a disproportionate high number of tail end wickets and a strike rate over 54, why is he seen as a better bowler that his countryman Imran and more importantly than McGrath from his era?

Likewise Lillee played in the same era as Hadlee and in similar conditions and Hadlee was statistically better, plus Lillee practically only played in three countries and in consistently more helpful conditions that McGrath and he too out performs him.

So slightly mystified by the Akram love especially over Imran who was for me the better bowler and brings his batting to the party and for me neither was as good a bowler that McGrath who seems similarly buried in the shadow of D.K Lillee.

Think it's now fair to say that they are pretty much 8 players who are shoo ins for an ATG XI side. In order of certainty, Bradman, Sobers, Warne, Hobbs, Marshall, Gilchrist, Richards and Tendulkar.
The last three spots though can make the world of difference especially considering that two of them as the teams No. 2 and 3 fast bowlers and the opening partner for Hobbs.

I am coming to the conclusion that Imran is the best option for #8. He is not the 3rd best fast bowler of All Time in my estimation but for a World XI one of the bowlers should be from the sub continent and proficient in the conditions and his batting just adds that extra dimension to the team. Imran was also a pioneer and master of reverse swing and as such the ideal old ball bowler.

To open the bowling with Marshall, McGrath is again the ideal option to open the bowling into the wind. The W.I was most dominant with Marshall opening the bowling with Garner whose height and accuracy was the perfect foil for Marshall's abilities. Think of McGrath as the improved version of Garner and the ultimate metronome and competitor who had the innate ability to consistently find the outside edge, he also had an amazing partnership with Warne, who is also in the team.

To open with Hobbs, I normally select Hutton who overcame so much and played against some awesome attacks before and after the War and seldom failed. The problem is that everyone who say Barry Richards bat either compared him to Sobers and his name sake from Antigua or says he was simply the best they ever saw. His exploits in WSC and the ROW series and in First Class cricket also shows what he was capable of. He was also a superb slipper who would allow a young Vivian to roam the offside or push Warne to Gully. Win win situation and genius added.

So for mine, the definitive ATG XI would be
Hobbs | Richards | Bradman | Richards | Tendulkar | Sobers | Gilchrist | Imran | Marshall | Warne | McGrath

 

[kyear2]

I don't get why SR is such a big deal. It obviously matters, but does it really matter that much when the player is scoring a lot of runs?

When you're the blowing team and struggling to make a breakthrough, you prefer if it's 46 / 0 , than 123 / 0 at lunch. It applies pressure to the bowlers, changes fields, lines and rotations.

And a s/r of 35 is glacial, and shows the inability to adjust or accelerate as required.

 

[kyear2]

It doesn't matter, especially for opener it might be better to play slow, I'm sure Australia would've preffered openers who stay until 25/30th over over Khawaja last BGT

His issue wasn't batting slower, the bowling was just superior up front.

 

[Johan]

His issue wasn't batting slower, the bowling was just superior up front.

Yeah but the biggest theme of the second and third test was Mcsweeny/Labuschagne just staying on the crease, surviving, tiring Bumrah out so later Head could come and destroy, that was invaluable, I reckon the 39(109) that McSweeny made in the Pink Ball test was more valuable than if he made 45(65)

 

[Coronis]

Oh my the same old arguments

 

[kyear2]

Barry Richards is slowly becoming the most mythologized player in history.

We can only hope

 

[kyear2]

it's an okay critique but I feel like you can apply a critique as trivial as that to any of the BAB club really

I don't think it's trivial though.

 

[Johan]

I don't think it's trivial though.

can't really take it more seriously than Sachin's technical flaw against slight-off pitched incoming delivery, or Viv's flaw of throwing his wicket against mid bowlers which made Idiot's think he has output issues, or Lara's issues with flat spin/awkward bounce and so forth.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Okay.... Come again why is Barry rated higher than ABD?? If pure skill is all, I don't believe he was more skillful. His FC career was shorter than ABD's Test, so there's that.

 

[Coronis]

can't really take it more seriously than Sachin's technical flaw against slight-off pitched incoming delivery, or Viv's flaw of throwing his wicket against mid bowlers which made Idiot's think he has output issues, or Lara's issues with flat spin/awkward bounce and so forth.

He does lack output. He has a relatively low rpi, century rate and conversion rate compared to others he is often compared to.

 

[Johan]

He does lack output. He has a relatively low rpi, century rate and conversion rate compared to others he is often compared to.

I don't personally believe his output (RPI) or century rate is decisively inferior to Sachin/Hammond types minus minnow bashing ngl, people like Sobers/Hutton have higher output but Sobers atleast has his own caveats.

Sachin (without Ban/Zim): 46.34 runs per inning, 7.1 innings per ton.
Hammond (without NZ): 48.32 runs per inning, 7.1 inning per ton.
Viv (without Sri Lanka): 46.92 runs per inning, 7.5 innings per ton.

that's without WSC, he's fine.

 

[subshakerz]

Only it's not just peer and pundit ratings, it's who they performed against, that Barry went out looking for challenges (and money of course), it's watching them as well.

And you're acting like I'm saying he wasn't an ATG, I have him as easily a top 20 batsman of all time, something you don't even afford to Kallis for your own biased reasons.

And no, I don't think that Pollock has a higher rating than Barry by their peers and pundits, especially not the guys who bowled to them.

I think Barry was special, like top 10, he literally could do things that no one else could, and who he was doing them against was special too... I don't think that's where you rate Pollock is it? Not too 10, so what's the issue?

Dude Pollock at least had an impressive albeit short international career to back his rep.

And the problem is you are asserting Barry was somehow more highly rated whereas that is just factually untrue.

Kallis is in my top 20 bats btw.

 

[subshakerz]

@subshakerz

A gem I found from 2013 that you might enjoy.

And quite consistent, over 11 years and only two changes.

Sounds like none of your views have been updated in over a decade.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Lara is away record and issues against high pace mainly.

Actually on face value, Lara’s away record seems very good not great. But a minute ago, someone put the RPI stuff into my head which had me thinking. I was curious to seenhow Lara compares using that metric ie the actual runs scored away. I'm going to show lara relative to a select few players:

Lara : 47.40

Sachin: 49.5
Smith: 49.6
Waugh S: 43.5
Kallis: 45
Dravid: 46.3
Hutton: 49.8
Viv: 47

The most surprising was S Waugh who averages 55 away but actually scored way less. Anyway, Lara does have his issues away but imo, it's not that far off his near contemporaries and other greats in terms of actual output.

 

[Coronis]

Actually on face value, Lara’s away record seems very good not great. But a minute ago, someone put the RPI stuff into my head which had me thinking. I was curious to seenhow Lara compares using that metric ie the actual runs scored away. I'm going to show lara relative to a select few players:

Lara : 47.40

Sachin: 49.5
Smith: 49.6
Waugh S: 43.5
Kallis: 45
Dravid: 46.3
Hutton: 49.8
Viv: 47

The most surprising was S Waugh who averages 55 away but actually scored way less. Anyway, Lara does have his issues away but imo, it's not that far off his near contemporaries and other greats in terms of actual output.

Crazy looking at Waugh’s away tons, he has 6 150+ not out scores, 3 declarations and 3 times the last man standing. Lotta runs left on the board there.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Crazy looking at Waugh’s away tons, he has 6 150+ not out scores, 3 declarations and 3 times the last man standing. Lotta runs left on the board there.

Very true.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Well summer up. When I was going on about these issues, they called me anti-Lara, even though he is one of my favorites.

You're anti Lara because: A. you bring it up every opportunity you get even when the man isn't in the convo. B. Most of us rank Lara around 7 or 8 ish overall but somehow that isn't good enough for you. C. You highlight Lara's flaws but when flaws in those you favor are brought up you come up with some convulotuted bs. Case in point now you lot are on about flat spinners as if that has any bearing on Laras overall preeminence vs spin. He whipped the two atg of his time but oh no he's overrated because he's less than stellar vs KUMBLE. Well Sachin supposedly whipped Donald but succumbed to Cronje or McMillan guess Sachin struggled bs medium pace. SUBZ: " That's irrelevant. " Bull.

 

[subshakerz]

You're anti Lara because: A. you bring it up every opportunity you get even when the man isn't in the convo. B. Most of us rank Lara around 7 or 8 ish overall but somehow that isn't good enough for you. C. You highlight Lara's flaws but when flaws in those you favor are brought up you come up with some convulotuted bs. Case in point now you lot are on about flat spinners as if that has any bearing on Laras overall preeminence vs spin. He whipped the two atg of his time but oh no he's overrated because he's less than stellar vs KUMBLE. Well Sachin supposedly whipped Donald but succumbed to Cronje or McMillan guess Sachin struggled bs medium pace. SUBZ: " That's irrelevant. " Bull.

A) bring it up normally in Lara related threads like this
B) I rank Lara at the same level, 7 or 8
C) no because use we are talking completely different sets of flaws. For example, Lara having issues with Kumble is relevant to an argument about his skills against spin. Tendulkars issues against Cronje is irrelevant to an argument of him against high quality pace.