Vettori v.s. Giles

[tooextracool]

your opinion stands yes, as would someone who said that rikki clarke was a quality batsman. if giles was so good in flight, drift and loop, hed have had at least a few match winning performances on non turners.

 

[Top_Cat]

your opinion stands yes, as would someone who said that rikki clarke was a quality batsman. if giles was so good in flight, drift and loop, hed have had at least a few match winning performances on non turners

Giles is in a slightly different role to Vettori so the two bowl differently to accomodate. Vettori can attack knowing his captain will keep bowling him and is used in that vein. Giles i part of a team where the pace bowlers are the main weapon and he's used in a pressure-building role. He is allowed to be more attacking on occasion but most of the time, he's building pressure so that either batsmen will look to attack him or the bowler at the other end. They are vastly different types of bowler in terms of tactics. So your last sentence is the sole judge for how good a bowler is?

Anyway, the real issue we're talking about is who uses flight effectively and in my view, Giles has the wood on Vettori. You've looked at both bowlers and conclude differently. Good on you. I can only disagree with you and leave it at that because I can't provide any evidence to support my view (just like you) other than what I've watched with my own eyes. Saying something like 'your opinion stands yes, as would someone who said that rikki clarke was a quality batsman' is just stupid and insulting because it's not relevent to what we're talking about and it's just a sophmore attempt to demean my view that Giles is a better bowler than Vettori right now. I'm well past taking that bait.

 

[marc71178]

in that almost everyone who voted for giles is english?

Which if you look at the voters is far from the truth.

 

[marc71178]

watch the test in perth 2001

It's now 2005.

 

[marc71178]

he is a good fourth bowler but i dont think he is good enough to be even the 2 best bowler in the england team what ever the conditions are while vettori at time have been good and he ahs 11 5w and 2 ten wicket hauls in his 54 games

And is that not more to do with the rest of the attacks for the 2 sides?

Certainly when England play in the subcontinent he's been far from the 4th bowler.

 

[tooextracool]

It's now 2005.

yes ans since then vettori has suffered from a career changing injury. of course the last 2 series would suggest that hes recovering to somewhere near his best, but theres still no doubt that vettori in his prime beats giles in his prime.

 

[tooextracool]

Which if you look at the voters is far from the truth.

so what is it then? 6 out of the 9 people that voted for giles are english( i dont know where one of them is from).
so how many of the people who voted vettori's way are actually from NZ?

 

[tooextracool]

Giles is in a slightly different role to Vettori so the two bowl differently to accomodate. Vettori can attack knowing his captain will keep bowling him and is used in that vein. Giles i part of a team where the pace bowlers are the main weapon and he's used in a pressure-building role. He is allowed to be more attacking on occasion but most of the time, he's building pressure so that either batsmen will look to attack him or the bowler at the other end. They are vastly different types of bowler in terms of tactics. So your last sentence is the sole judge for how good a bowler is?

did it ever occur to you that the only reason why giles plays the pressure building role in so many games, is because hes incapable of attacking except when the pitch suits him?
and where exactly did i say that my last sentence was the sole judge for how good a bowler is? my last sentence was used to suggest that if giles had more variety, hed be far more attacking on non turners, which he certainly hasnt been. and the pressure building role, what exactly is it? it relies on the bowler at the other end bowling well too to get wickets, of course in vettoris case, with those other fabulous NZ bowlers he basically has no choice but to attack, when hes probably just as capable as giles of defending.

Anyway, the real issue we're talking about is who uses flight effectively and in my view, Giles has the wood on Vettori. You've looked at both bowlers and conclude differently. Good on you. I can only disagree with you and leave it at that because I can't provide any evidence to support my view (just like you) other than what I've watched with my own eyes. Saying something like 'your opinion stands yes, as would someone who said that rikki clarke was a quality batsman' is just stupid and insulting because it's not relevent to what we're talking about and it's just a sophmore attempt to demean my view that Giles is a better bowler than Vettori right now. I'm well past taking that bait.

good for you then....
AFAIC vettori has been far more capable in flight, and has shown himself to be quite brilliant in terms of drift and loop, something that ive barely ever noticed in giles bowling, not to mention of course that vettori turns the ball more than giles does. of course its quite impossible to show who proof, but really i am surprised that you think that giles has more variations in flight, even though its so clearly obvious that he doesnt.

 

[Top_Cat]

did it ever occur to you that the only reason why giles plays the pressure building role in so many games, is because hes incapable of attacking except when the pitch suits him?

He's not incapable of doing it. I've seen him do just that in fact. Your assertions that he's somehow incapable of coing consistently are simply incorrect. It's like saying that Glenn McGrath is incapable of bowling 140km/h+ when he most certainly is and I've watched him do it. He just doesn't do it every ball or in every match. Same with Giles; just because he attacks less often than Vettori doesn't suggest he's incapable of it.

AFAIC vettori has been far more capable in flight, and has shown himself to be quite brilliant in terms of drift and loop, something that ive barely ever noticed in giles bowling, not to mention of course that vettori turns the ball more than giles does. of course its quite impossible to show who proof, but really i am surprised that you think that giles has more variations in flight, even though its so clearly obvious that he doesnt.

Say it all you want, it's not 'clear' at all. It's your opinion. Mine differs, accept it. I've seen Giles turn the ball consistently as much as Vettori (some of the stuff he sent down to the WI in the most recent series was really ripped) and I've seen him vary pace and flight as much as Vettori and on some occasions more. He's perfectly capable of doing everything Vettori does technically because, again, I've watched him do it and I'm not the only one.

I'm not saying you're wrong for believing Vettori is the better bowler because that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But to say he can't turn/flight/whatever the ball is quite simply objectively wrong because I've seen him do it many times and I've not watched him anywhere near as much as an English fan, for example.

 

[tooextracool]

He's not incapable of doing it. I've seen him do just that in fact. Your assertions that he's somehow incapable of coing consistently are simply incorrect. It's like saying that Glenn McGrath is incapable of bowling 140km/h+ when he most certainly is and I've watched him do it. He just doesn't do it every ball or in every match. Same with Giles; just because he attacks less often than Vettori doesn't suggest he's incapable of it.

so lets hear of these occasions where hes been attacking on non turning wickets?
my assertions are based on facts, hes never looked capable of picking up wickets outside of turners.

Say it all you want, it's not 'clear' at all. It's your opinion. Mine differs, accept it. I've seen Giles turn the ball consistently as much as Vettori (some of the stuff he sent down to the WI in the most recent series was really ripped) and I've seen him vary pace and flight as much as Vettori and on some occasions more. He's perfectly capable of doing everything Vettori does technically because, again, I've watched him do it and I'm not the only one.

I'm not saying you're wrong for believing Vettori is the better bowler because that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But to say he can't turn/flight/whatever the ball is quite simply objectively wrong because I've seen him do it many times and I've not watched him anywhere near as much as an English fan, for example.

exactly, and as an english fan ive watched a lot of giles, and in all my watching ive rarely ever seen him use drift efffectively. ive seen him use flight effectively on the odd occasion, certainly nowhere near as well as vettori who is really quite brilliant in both. and with regard to him turning it against the WI, wow good on him for getting turn from the rough patches of a turner. i've watched the 2 extremely closely, and IMO its fairly obvious that vettori is the one with more variety. and since there really is no way of proving this to you, other than by watching more of the 2 of them, this argument really isnt going to get anywhere.

 

[SJS]

Which if you look at the voters is far from the truth.

And I can understand why a lot of Indians dont think much of Giles. I didnt either. When he came to India, Hussain tried him in a negative role to contain Tendulkar. It was the most pathetic example of helplessness of a captain masquerading as strategy.

The fact that it failed dawned on everyone except Hussaid but then he was never one to look objectively at his own drawbacks.

But it did much greater damage to Giles. He looked incapable of bowling anything reasonable and appeared as helpless as his captain and by default seemed to all of us to be resorting to these ludicrous tactics to camouflage his incompetence. I genuinely believed so then.

I have just changed my opinion by seeing how he has been transformed under a new skipper.

I am convinced all these Indian members of the forum would have voted differently but for his unfortunate antics against india which made him appear in very bad light indeed.

 

[Blaze]

And I can understand why a lot of Indians dont think much of Giles. I didnt either. When he came to India, Hussain tried him in a negative role to contain Tendulkar. It was the most pathetic example of helplessness of a captain masquerading as strategy.

The fact that it failed dawned on everyone except Hussaid but then he was never one to look objectively at his own drawbacks.

But it did much greater damage to Giles. He looked incapable of bowling anything reasonable and appeared as helpless as his captain and by default seemed to all of us to be resorting to these ludicrous tactics to camouflage his incompetence. I genuinely believed so then.

I have just changed my opinion by seeing how he has been transformed under a new skipper.

I am convinced all these Indian members of the forum would have voted differently but for his unfortunate antics against india which made him appear in very bad light indeed.

IMO it is up to the bowler to challenge the skipper and tell Hussian to back him and let him try get the batsmen out.

 

[SJS]

IMO it is up to the bowler to challenge the skipper and tell Hussian to back him and let him try get the batsmen out.

Really. What makes you think the skipper will listen ?

Anyway, we are not talking about whether Giles could have behaved like Shoaib but what made Giles look diffferent to Indians when they saw him last.

Even if it was Giles who preffered to bowl that line (which is not true and we all know it and Hussain has defended it very strongly as the right course of action) at least Vaughan corrected him and made him bowl in a manner that is good for the team and for him.

This has made us see Giles in a different light.

 

[marc71178]

yes ans since then vettori has suffered from a career changing injury. of course the last 2 series would suggest that hes recovering to somewhere near his best, but theres still no doubt that vettori in his prime beats giles in his prime.

It all depends on how long a prime he's going to have - 2 series, 1 of which was in Bangladesh, seem to have completely changed people's views of him.

 

[vic_orthdox]

i personally think Hoggard is the workhorse of the attack. He bowls long spells and sometimes you feel he is going to run into the ground. Giles' action is not over taxing and it allows him to bowl 35+ overs-day. Itis just a personal thing , i feel Hoggy uses more energy to bowl 15 overs than Giles uses to bowl 40

workhorse doesn't mean that you put in more effort than everyone else, as far as im concerned. it's the person who is up the other end, bowling the 35+ overs that you speak of, and keeping pressure and dot balls (which seems to be giles' role) while the other bowlers attack from the other end, knowing that they'll have to score off the other bowlers, because giles has one end tied down.

 

[SpeedKing]

workhorse doesn't mean that you put in more effort than everyone else, as far as im concerned. it's the person who is up the other end, bowling the 35+ overs that you speak of, and keeping pressure and dot balls (which seems to be giles' role) while the other bowlers attack from the other end, knowing that they'll have to score off the other bowlers, because giles has one end tied down.

i said it was just a personal thing, and didn't have to comply to the normal rules. Perhaps, it might have been the fct that giles was underbowled in the SA series and Hoggy was doing the donkey-work. slight shot-memoryness [if that is a word] on my part

 

[sledger]

vettori has a great deal more natural talent than giles i dont think there is any doubting that, but in terms of hard work and graft i think giles is a marvelous performer, at this current stage in time i would say giles is the better player, however i rather expect that by the end of this year vettori will be the superior. Due to the fact that Giles is aging and will not be able to keep this level of performance up for many more years now, and vettori should be reaching his very high potential sometime soonish i hope.

 

[Blaze]

Interesting to see in an interview this morning before the fourth days play Adam Gilchrist said he believes Dan Vettori is the best left arm spinner in his field.

 

[luckyeddie]

There is no comparison.

Spanish nobility every time.

 

[tooextracool]

It all depends on how long a prime he's going to have - 2 series, 1 of which was in Bangladesh, seem to have completely changed people's views of him.

i was referring to his career pre 2001, which was still better than giles overall career. no i cant say for certain whether vettori is back to his best or will infact bowl better than what he was pre 2001, but certainly recent evidence against australia in both tests and ODIs seems to suggest that maybe just maybe hes back to somewhere near his best. outbowling shane warne isnt the easiest thing in the world either.