Vettori v.s. Giles

[anzac]

you are right that the top 'offies' have had success in AUS (they used to have a bit of a weakness in that area), but in general their pitches do not favour finger spin - hence the AUS development of 'leggies' - Warne, MacGill, Hogg etc where they generate more spin on the ball.............

and certainly NZL has not favoured any spin for several seasons - Vettori basically sat out the entire IND series................

yet in IND IMO he was as effective as any of the local spinners.............but again didn't take wickets.............

 

[SJS]

you are right that the top 'offies' have had success in AUS (they used to have a bit of a weakness in that area), but in general their pitches do not favour finger spin - hence the AUS development of 'leggies' - Warne, MacGill, Hogg etc where they generate more spin on the ball.............

and certainly NZL has not favoured any spin for several seasons - Vettori basically sat out the entire IND series................

yet in IND IMO he was as effective as any of the local spinners.............but again didn't take wickets.............

I maintain, this is because he does not tweak the ball enough. Its a mildly rotating tossed up ball with the only virtue being that it is tosssed up more often than pitched short. But he doesnt have it in his bowling to get that deceptive trajectory or the bite off the wicket.

 

[anzac]

an indication of how well Vettori did in AUS.................

initial talk was of him being 'targetted' by AUS batsmen, just as someone else pointed out re Giles...............yet I can't recall the AUS batsmen being able to come down the pitch to him and play attacking strokes freely...............

 

[SJS]

an indication of how well Vettori did in AUS.................

initial talk was of him being 'targetted' by AUS batsmen, just as someone else pointed out re Giles...............yet I can't recall the AUS batsmen being able to come down the pitch to him and play attacking strokes freely...............

I think they are just not used to it. When was the last good left arm spinner spinner from australia. They have had leg spinners galore and off spinners but this is a rare breed for them. Even Murali Karthik had them in some trouble and we dont play him in the side.

 

[tooextracool]

Giles for me. Vettori probably the superior batsman but Giles as a bowler. For mine, he has greater variation in flight which is pretty good for a guy who started his FC career (or grade, not sure) as a pace bowler.

err no, if you've watched vettori closely you would see quite clearly that vettori is far better than giles in terms of variations and in flight, drift and loop. giles for me is nothing more than a container in non-spinner friendly conditions.

 

[tooextracool]

When one actually compares the players figures and current World Ratings (I only had time to look at Tests as the ODI thing on the ICC site is playing up at the moment) - you'd have to suggest that there's a bit of nationalistic bias creeping into the voting here.

Then I looked at the people who had voted, and that suggestion got just a tad more momentum.

in that almost everyone who voted for giles is english?

 

[tooextracool]

So please tell us why you've voted the way you have?

watch the test in perth 2001, if ashley giles ever manages to bowl anywhere near as well as that on a remotely similar pitch i'd be surprised. if giles ever managed to take 7 wickets against australia in an inning on any wicket id be surprised too.

 

[tooextracool]

I am surprised that people think Vettori has improved. Take away his performances against B Desh and see what he has achieved.

Since 2000-2001, he has played 11 test series (besides the two against Bangla Desh). During these 11 series, spread over five years, he has taken 57 wickets for 2848 runs at 50 runs each and a strike rate of 102.6 !!!

By any yard stick it is a miserable performance by a leading bowler. I cant think of ONE other bowler in the world who has such a terrible record and has still played such a large proportion of his sides games in the same period in the world !!!

Here are the 11 series details

Series....................Wkts......Avg......S/R

2000-2001 ZIM v NZL.....1......79......312
2001-2002 AUS v NZL ..13......34......61
2001-2002 NZL v ENG...5......56......98
2001-2002 PAK v NZL ..1.....178......240
2001-2002 WIN v NZL ...8......27......54
2002-2003 SRL v NZL ...3......35......78
2003-2004 IND v NZL.....5......67......167
2003-2004 NZL v PAK ...3......74......162
2003-2004 NZL v SAF ...4......113.....220
2004 ENG v NZL...........4......51......104
2004-2005 vs Australia...10......34......74

Overall........................57......50......103

How can anyone consider him a class test bowler? I know stats dont tell everything but this is really very poor commentary on his achievements. I cant think of another side that would persisit with him as a bowler !!

What are we talikng about ? His last series against australia ?? The three innings in which he bowled , he got, 4 for 154, 5 for 152 and 1 for 35 ! Is this some phenomenal return to form ?? I am amazed. Maye he has been taken to the cleaners so much over the last 10 series that this appears like some kind of revival to his fans but I beg you pardon !

because he bowled far better in that series against australia than his figures suggested. no i wont say thats hes definetly back to his best, but recent performances seem to indicate so. regardless vettori in his prime vs giles in his prime, its still no contest.

 

[tooextracool]

you are right that the top 'offies' have had success in AUS (they used to have a bit of a weakness in that area), but in general their pitches do not favour finger spin - hence the AUS development of 'leggies' - Warne, MacGill, Hogg etc where they generate more spin on the ball.............

and certainly NZL has not favoured any spin for several seasons - Vettori basically sat out the entire IND series................

yet in IND IMO he was as effective as any of the local spinners.............but again didn't take wickets.............

actually no, i was extremely dissapointed with his performances in india and extremely surprised too. for me when he had the conditions in his favour he simply did not use it to his benefit. which makes me inclined to believe that he prefers conditions in australia and england because of the bounce and the drift as opposed to conditions in india and SL which are usually slow and low.

 

[tooextracool]

I think they are just not used to it. When was the last good left arm spinner spinner from australia. They have had leg spinners galore and off spinners but this is a rare breed for them. Even Murali Karthik had them in some trouble and we dont play him in the side.

he got absolutely hammered by them in sydney. really his figures wouldnt have been as good had he not got to play in the 4th test in conditions that would make even hauritz look good

 

[biased indian]

So please tell us why you've voted the way you have?

the simple reason is i think he is a far far better bowler tha giles

Gile is basically a defensive bowler.when he came to india where every spinner in world will be hoping to perform well because the conditions suit u the opposition is the toughest that u can face.what did he do he started from the first over to bowl with a negative line of attack what does it says about his style.he then continued to bowl tha same again in the following series that he has played .he has got only 5 5wicket haul in his 45 tets career and no ten wicket ones. he is a good fourth bowler but i dont think he is good enough to be even the 2 best bowler in the england team what ever the conditions are while vettori at time have been good and he ahs 11 5w and 2 ten wicket hauls in his 54 games

 

[Jono]

I think they are just not used to it. When was the last good left arm spinner spinner from australia. They have had leg spinners galore and off spinners but this is a rare breed for them. Even Murali Karthik had them in some trouble and we dont play him in the side.

No he didn't really trouble them. Granted he had Ponting stumped in the 2nd innings (I believe it was the 2nd), and bowled a few good deliveries, he didn't do much at all.

 

[SpeedKing]

someone earlier talked about giles versus australia. i reckon it'll be the real acid test, coz i have no doubt that giles is the bowler that the aussies will target. being the workhorse of the attack, and the guy who builds all the pressure, they'll come at him really hard and see if they can get him dragged, and then leave more pressure on the english pace bowlers.

i personally think Hoggard is the workhorse of the attack. He bowls long spells and sometimes you feel he is going to run into the ground. Giles' action is not over taxing and it allows him to bowl 35+ overs-day. Itis just a personal thing , i feel Hoggy uses more energy to bowl 15 overs than Giles uses to bowl 40

 

[SpeedKing]

watch the test in perth 2001, if ashley giles ever manages to bowl anywhere near as well as that on a remotely similar pitch i'd be surprised. if giles ever managed to take 7 wickets against australia in an inning on any wicket id be surprised too.

I just got this giddy feeling inside when I read that TEC . Remember he has 10 chances to do that this summer. My point is don't be so sure.

 

[tooextracool]

well the former one i can almost guarantee, giles has never looked capable of picking up wickets on a non-spinner friendly wicket. the latter, well giles has never managed to take more than 5 wickets in an inning against any team. so i really doubt that he can take 7 wickets against this australian side.

 

[SpeedKing]

BTW i voted for Giles and take it from me, it was not because he is English. It was because the poll was 40-8-8 before i voted for Giles.

i am really shocked that this poll is such a landslide. There is really not alot between them. Nne of them has a doosra/ wrong 'un. Where Vettori beats Giles in promise and potential, Giles beats him in experiance [he is such a clever user of his top spinner -that's why he is a threat to lefties].

I am really scratching my head trying to figure out why Vettori is so much better than giles in this poll.

 

[SpeedKing]

well the former one i can almost guarantee, giles has never looked capable of picking up wickets on a non-spinner friendly wicket. the latter, well giles has never managed to take more than 5 wickets in an inning against any team. so i really doubt that he can take 7 wickets against this australian side.

Believe you me, never say never. I see where you are coming from that he is not relly a 5-for bowler but hope can go a long way. You haven't learned anything from Kabir Ali's last over heroics.

In My usual patriotic self.

 

[tooextracool]

i actually didnt say he will 'never' take 7 wickets against australia, i said that i would be surprised were he to do so.

 

[SpeedKing]

Granted TEC

 

[Top_Cat]

err no, if you've watched vettori closely you would see quite clearly that vettori is far better than giles in terms of variations and in flight, drift and loop. giles for me is nothing more than a container in non-spinner friendly conditions.

Errr no, I've watched them both extensively and my opinion remains. Deal with it.