Vettori v.s. Giles

[FaaipDeOiad]

Yes, I know. But the team he is restricting and getting wickets against happens to be the best side in the world, so he can't be that bad a spinner, can he?

Well he does need to improve his performances against the rest of the world. Nevertheless, they are fairly evenly matches in my view, but I would rather have Vettori in the side because he has a lot of improvement in him, whereas I can't see Giles going that much further.

 

[vic_orthdox]

i'm a LA orthodox bowler, and i've never ever had the ring finger involved in imparting turn on the ball, and never had it suggested to me. always been taught that the index finger should be doing all the work.

 

[biased indian]

this has to be one of the one sided polls ever done on CW

30-7

 

[chaminda_00]

i'm a LA orthodox bowler, and i've never ever had the ring finger involved in imparting turn on the ball, and never had it suggested to me. always been taught that the index finger should be doing all the work.

Allot finger spin bowlers use the ring finger to spin the ball more, u should try it works but allot harder to control and also u loss a bit drift.

 

[chaminda_00]

As for someone saying Rafique - he has the rather considerable bonus of playing most of his cricket on the sub continent.

With that train of thought when comparing fast bowlers u could argue that a fast bowler from the sub-continent with an ave of 28 is better then a bowler from outside Asia who has an ave of 23 or does this theory only apply to spin bowlers

 

[12th Man]

I think it is very even between the two

 

[twctopcat]

With that train of thought when comparing fast bowlers u could argue that a fast bowler from the sub-continent with an ave of 28 is better then a bowler from outside Asia who has an ave of 23 or does this theory only apply to spin bowlers

It certainly helps explaining why someone like Vaas has such a relatively high average.

 

[chaminda_00]

It certainly helps explaining why someone like Vaas has such a relatively high average.

True but that doesn't nessary mean he is a better bowler then Gillespie for example, just like that doesn't mean Giles and Vettori are better bowlers then Rafique.

 

[marc71178]

With that train of thought when comparing fast bowlers u could argue that a fast bowler from the sub-continent with an ave of 28 is better then a bowler from outside Asia who has an ave of 23 or does this theory only apply to spin bowlers

It would depend on where he played most of his cricket. As it stands, Rafique's figures are 67 @ 32.77 - good for Bangladesh, but hardly world beating when you consider he's played 10 of his 18 games at home, 3 in Pakistan, 2 each in WI and Zimbabwe and 1 in South Africa.

 

[marc71178]

this has to be one of the one sided polls ever done on CW

30-7

When one actually compares the players figures and current World Ratings (I only had time to look at Tests as the ODI thing on the ICC site is playing up at the moment) - you'd have to suggest that there's a bit of nationalistic bias creeping into the voting here.

Then I looked at the people who had voted, and that suggestion got just a tad more momentum.

 

[mavric41]

It has to be Vettori. At least the Aussies treat him with some respect.

 

[chaminda_00]

It would depend on where he played most of his cricket. As it stands, Rafique's figures are 67 @ 32.77 - good for Bangladesh, but hardly world beating when you consider he's played 10 of his 18 games at home, 3 in Pakistan, 2 each in WI and Zimbabwe and 1 in South Africa.

And Giles and Vettori stats are world beating aren't they, u get used to ur home conditions where ur from. Some consideration has to be taken into account about the pitches reponse to ur type of bowling, but it isn't that big of a factor.

 

[marc71178]

That is utter rubbish.

A lot of weight has to be given to the responsiveness of the pitch to the type of bowling.

Giles and Vettori aren't world beating no, but to suggest Rafique is better than either of them is a tad of an unfair statement.

 

[chaminda_00]

That is utter rubbish.

A lot of weight has to be given to the responsiveness of the pitch to the type of bowling.

Giles and Vettori aren't world beating no, but to suggest Rafique is better than either of them is a tad of an unfair statement.

If that the case then does that mean Vaas is a better bowler then Gillespie. If u give so much weight to the reponsiveness of the pitch then answer would have to be yes, following ur theory.

It also unfair to say that Rafique isn't better then them just because he play his cricket in Bangladesh is it not.

 

[Top_Cat]

I think it's pretty unfair to bring up Vettori's record against Australia considering Giles has only played two Tests and four ODI's against them. And in the ODI's he's bowled tightly annd held down an end at least.

I think we'll be able to more accurately judge where Giles is at after he plays a full series against them. Personally, I think he'll fare pretty well.

 

[marc71178]

If that the case then does that mean Vaas is a better bowler then Gillespie. If u give so much weight to the reponsiveness of the pitch then answer would have to be yes, following ur theory.

A stupid comparison - the responsiveness of the pitch to spin makes a huge difference in the figures attained by spinners such as Giles and Vettori.

It also unfair to say that Rafique isn't better then them just because he play his cricket in Bangladesh is it not.

Well until he gets better figures in non-spin friendly places, there's no way to say he is better.

 

[chaminda_00]

A stupid comparison - the responsiveness of the pitch to spin makes a huge difference in the figures attained by spinners such as Giles and Vettori.

Your joking aren't u look at a pitch like the WACA compared to ur average Asian pitch. Pitches outside Asia repond allot more to fast bowler then pitches in Asia, in same way that pitches in Asia repond more to spin then pitches outside Asia.

But regardless of that bowler get used to the condition at home and change their bowling accordingly. If a spin bowler outside Asia can't change his bowling to pitches his fronted with at home then he isn't good enough.

 

[Kippax]

Yes it IS thumb and two fingers with the fourth finger at the bottom near the thumb. Vettori holds with thumb and index finger finger with the middle finger giving support at the bottom.

SJS isn't alone - similar technical concerns from Billy Ibadulla were in the NZ media last year. I remember hearing him in a radio interview and he made the same comments about less revolutions on the ball, etc.

I don't really feel qualified to comment, but it intrigues me that Vettori would effectively say "I was bowling well back then (averaging 60.4 for his last 19 tests before the BAN tour last year), I'm not doing anything different now". It makes me very interested to see if his current form will last, particularly when Sri Lanka arrive.

Copyright Independent Newspapers, Ltd. Jan 4, 2004

FLAWS IN Daniel Vettori's bowling action are jeopardising his future in test cricket, according to Dunedin-based coaching guru Billy Ibadulla.

The former Pakistan test player believes Vettori's bowling, as well as the Black Caps' poor defensive batting, are hurting New Zealand in test matches. He said both problems were fixable but he did think Paul Wiseman was now New Zealand's best spinner.

"Daniel Vettori's strike rate and averages do not meet the needs of the team," said Ibadulla. "He has become a very handy cricketer, but as a spin bowler he's not doing the job. There are a number of things that are not helping him spin the ball as much as he should be."

The former TV commentator, whose catchphrase was "that's the man", wonders what has happened to that talented boy. The Hamiltonian has been an integral Black Cap since his debut at 18.

"He is not spinning the ball as much as he used to do. The bowling stride has got to be looked at and the position of his front arm. They may even have to look at his bowling grip, and also the position of his bowling fingers at the end of the delivery in his follow through."

Ibadulla believes new Black Caps coach John Bracewell, a former test off-spinner, is the ideal man to rectify these problems. "He would perhaps demand a lot more from Daniel when it comes to getting people out."

Vettori's response:

"I've never met Billy, I don't know his credentials and I also don't know the reason why he would say things to the newspaper as opposed to wanting to help me personally."

For all that, Vettori said he left no stone unturned trying to work out why the wickets weren't coming like they used to.

"I looked into it, studied my action and compared myself when I was bowling well and getting results and I saw nothing different.

"And being completely honest I thought I was bowling all right. There were things I needed to work on and I got frustrated at times at the lack of success and maybe went searching for wickets, but that was all. I was confident I could get through it and that's what happened in Bangladesh. It came together and it was a great stepping stone for Australia. Bangladesh are not a top side but when you come off 12 months of little success it does wonders for your confidence."

Of course, Vettori does not have to look far for advice, with coach John Bracewell well versed in the art of spin. "He's always been happy with the way I've been bowling, but just felt I was searching for wickets at times, and when you force too hard it can work against you.

"I think a lot our troubles have come in the fourth innings of matches and being the only spinner that was a little down to me not being able to get the job done."

 

[biased indian]

When one actually compares the players figures and current World Ratings (I only had time to look at Tests as the ODI thing on the ICC site is playing up at the moment) - you'd have to suggest that there's a bit of nationalistic bias creeping into the voting here.

Then I looked at the people who had voted, and that suggestion got just a tad more momentum.

its even worse now 37-8 ya every one here is biased except 8 people

 

[dro87]

Daniel LUCA Vettori is much better... Maybe cos he's Italian... LOL!!!
However, Vettori is a much better batsman, and probably the same as Giles for Bowling...