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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
steve132 said:
I respectfully disagree on both counts. Gibbs was a MUCH better bowler than you suggest. He bowled very well everywhere (in Australia, England, India and Pakistan) and could be relied upon to win a match for the West Indies in virtually every series played during his prime, which lasted for a considerable period (Georgetown 1958 and 1965, Sydney 1961, Bridgetown 1962, Old Trafford 1963 and 1966, Kolkata 1966, etc.). He would have been the first choice spinner in any World XI picked for almost a decade after Richie Benaud's retirement. You can compare his record to that of any of his contemporaries and see the results.

The other issue is that any all-time XI needs a quality spinner, unless you know in advance that the match will be played on a fast bowlers' paradise. My assumption is that these teams are being selected for a series of matches played under a wide range of conditions, and that the same team must play in all matches. Virtually any cricketer of note will tell you that it is essential to have a spinner available, not only in order to provide variety (some batters are much better players of pace than spin) but also to be a potential match winner on the fourth or fifth day. Clive Lloyd's attack, great as it was, looked decidedly limited under certain circumstances. Lloyd (correctly) opted for an all-pace quartet because he had no spinners of quality available. He would not have made the same choice if Gibbs or Ramadhin had been a decade or so younger. In fact, Lloyd selected Gibbs in his all-star team of players he had seen.
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Yeah I get the feeling Slifer just rates Gibbs a bit lower than most of us, as opposed to really disagreeing much about the balance points. He said he'd picked MacGill or Ashwin; I think Gibbs was better than both (although I think he was factoring in Ashwin's batting).
 
S

steve132

U19 Debutant
ataraxia said:
This is something I've only ever seen stated on CW.
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As far as I can tell, EVERYONE who actually saw Sobers bowl would agree that he was most effective as a seamer. He did begin his career as a slow left arm spinner, but developed as a seam bowler after playing League cricket in England. He took most of his Test wickets bowling pace and swing rather than spin.

Some strange propositions about players from that era have been advanced in this forum. This can be somewhat disconcerting to those of us who actually saw them in action.
 
A

AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
On alt.sport.cricket, there was a big Sobers fan (he called himself "Steve the Bajan") who wrote this about Sobers in 2000:

"Sobers' bowling average was in the mid-40s until he started bowling pace under Worrell. I published a long analysis on rsc a few years back that indicated that Sobers, as a pace bowler, averaged about 28 runs per wicket for his career, and about 25 during the period '63-70.

Again, must Sobers' greatness as a pace bowler be discounted just because he had the skill, and WI had the need to use him (1) as a spinner, and (2) at an advanced age when WI had no other bowling threat?"

and

"It might be of interest that Tom Graveney, who faced them all, in his Top Ten Cricket Book (1982) names Sobers behind only Davidson and Bedser
among post-war fast medium bowlers (and ahead of McKenzie and Garner, with which last I totally disagree; of course, Joel's career was only
half over at that time).

Back in July, I posted a list of all WI pace bowlers in my order of preference. The top 20 were:

(1)Curtly Ambrose (2)Malcolm Marshall (3)Joel Garner (4)Michael Holding (5)Colin Croft (6)Wes Hall (7)Courtney Walsh (8)Garfield Sobers (9)Andy
Roberts (10)Roy Gilchrist (11)Ian Bishop (12)Manny Martindale (13)Sylvester Clarke (14)Patrick Patterson (15)Herman Griffith (16)Learie Constantine (17)Charlie Griffith (18) Kenneth Benjamin (19) Reon King (20) Wayne Daniel"
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
I'd also include Jesse Ryder (mostly his own doing) and some injury prone quicks from Bond, Harris, Bruce Reid, Simon Jones, and Bishop.
 
J

Jayro

U19 12th Man
A bowling average of 25 would bring Sobers very near to Don Bradman as a cricketer with every body else comfortably far behind.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
Flem274* said:
West Indies I've Seen

Chris Gayle
Kraigg Brathwaite
Ramnaresh Sarwan
Brian Lara
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Dwayne Bravo
Dinesh Ramdin
Jason Holder
Jerome Taylor
Kemar Roach
Courtney Walsh

West Indies I haven't

Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Viv Richards
George Headley
Clive Lloyd (c)
Garfield Sobers
Jeff Dujon
Malcolm Marshall
Lance Gibbs
Curtly Ambrose
Joel Garner
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Um so you've seen Walsh but not Ambrose?
 
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