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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Whereas a 4-man pace attack works against a national side, I sometimes wonder whether it would work against an AT XI.
An AT XI definitely has a stronger batting lineup than those who faced the WIndies of the 80's. And if they ground them down, there's no relief. Better to include a specialist spinner like a Gibbs or Ramadhin, if for nothing else then to showcase your depth / variety and entertain the onlookers.
An AT XI definitely has a stronger batting lineup than those who faced the WIndies of the 80's. And if they ground them down, there's no relief. Better to include a specialist spinner like a Gibbs or Ramadhin, if for nothing else then to showcase your depth / variety and entertain the onlookers.
TheJediBrah
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Also over rate penalties
bagapath
International Captain
The Rejects
Australia
hayden
trumper
ponting
smith
steve waugh
noble
healy +
davidson
lindwall
grimmett
cummins
England
sutcliffe
boycott
may
root
hammond
stokes
prior +
rhodes
snow
bedser
barnes
West Indies
hunte
fredericks
worrell
kanhai
walcott
weekes
murray +
roberts
hall
gibbs
walsh
India
rohit
merchant
pujara
hazare
laxman
mankad
kirmani +
kumble
srinath
shami
bedi
South Africa
gibbs
mitchell
g kirsten
amla
nourse jr
s pollock
boucher+
p pollock
philander
adcock
rabada
Slifer
International Captain
I respectfully disagree. I believe in playing your best players and frankly none of Gibbs or Ramadhin are good enough to replace any of the fast bowlers. That's true especially when you consider that all of the WI fast men did well home and away.
Then even great attacks that have the variety of a spinner, can be taken apart from time to time. Case in point, Warne vs India. I always felt that had Australia gone with an all pace attack in India, they may have more success. I use India, because they're as close to an atg batting lineup that Australia would've faced.
1.You’re not just picking your best bowlers - you’re picking your best bowling attack. Which means that the bowlers complement each other so that the total is greater than the sum of it’s parts. There’s nothing much that Walsh can do that Marshall / Holding / Garner cannot do better. But there’s certainly something that Gibbs can do that the others cannot.
2. You’re only allowed 11 (or 12) AT players who have to play against all other AT teams, in all conditions, on all types of wickets, in all eras… It’s not like a touring party that can select from 16 players against 1 team on 1 wicket under known conditions.
3. While I am a strong proponent of firepower, there is the risk that fast bowlers will tire if they go up against a lineup of say Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Barrington, Hammond et al. This is not the same as going up against a lineup of teams they did in the 80’s.
Anyways, it’s an exercise of imagination and everyone is entitled to their own choices which makes for an absorbing discussion.
Slifer
International Captain
Given a spinner of the caliber of Warne, Murali or even Ashwin who's a very good/great spinner plus he can bat, I'd consider replacing one of the fast bowlers. Unfortunately, Gibbs just doesn't fit that mold. Hell, if MacGill was available, I'd choose him.
And I don't see too many all time batting lineup getting the better of Marshall, Holding, Garner or Walsh. Btw I only used the above bowling combo because it's a lineup that actually played together.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
What's the unlucky XI then?
Alec Stewart (actually played a **** ton, but was horribly misused by England
Kambli
MacGill
Need 8 others.
Alec Stewart (actually played a **** ton, but was horribly misused by England
Kambli
MacGill
Need 8 others.
Red_Ink_Squid
Global Moderator
Could probably make a decent XI just from 00s Oz cricketers.
I respectfully disagree on both counts. Gibbs was a MUCH better bowler than you suggest. He bowled very well everywhere (in Australia, England, India and Pakistan) and could be relied upon to win a match for the West Indies in virtually every series played during his prime, which lasted for a considerable period (Georgetown 1958 and 1965, Sydney 1961, Bridgetown 1962, Old Trafford 1963 and 1966, Kolkata 1966, etc.). He would have been the first choice spinner in any World XI picked for almost a decade after Richie Benaud's retirement. You can compare his record to that of any of his contemporaries and see the results.
The other issue is that any all-time XI needs a quality spinner, unless you know in advance that the match will be played on a fast bowlers' paradise. My assumption is that these teams are being selected for a series of matches played under a wide range of conditions, and that the same team must play in all matches. Virtually any cricketer of note will tell you that it is essential to have a spinner available, not only in order to provide variety (some batters are much better players of pace than spin) but also to be a potential match winner on the fourth or fifth day. Clive Lloyd's attack, great as it was, looked decidedly limited under certain circumstances. Lloyd (correctly) opted for an all-pace quartet because he had no spinners of quality available. He would not have made the same choice if Gibbs or Ramadhin had been a decade or so younger. In fact, Lloyd selected Gibbs in his all-star team of players he had seen.
JBMAC
State Captain
Sam Trimble
Flem274*
123/5
West Indies I've Seen
Chris Gayle
Kraigg Brathwaite
Ramnaresh Sarwan
Brian Lara
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Dwayne Bravo
Dinesh Ramdin
Jason Holder
Jerome Taylor
Kemar Roach
Courtney Walsh
West Indies I haven't
Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Viv Richards
George Headley
Clive Lloyd (c)
Garfield Sobers
Jeff Dujon
Malcolm Marshall
Lance Gibbs
Curtly Ambrose
Joel Garner
Chris Gayle
Kraigg Brathwaite
Ramnaresh Sarwan
Brian Lara
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Dwayne Bravo
Dinesh Ramdin
Jason Holder
Jerome Taylor
Kemar Roach
Courtney Walsh
West Indies I haven't
Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Viv Richards
George Headley
Clive Lloyd (c)
Garfield Sobers
Jeff Dujon
Malcolm Marshall
Lance Gibbs
Curtly Ambrose
Joel Garner
No, he can't. Sobers was a better seam bowler than a spinner. I would be happy to have him as a second spinner, but not as the principal one in an all-time team.