The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[mr_mister]

For the 3rd time, I'm not saying it would have solved all his problems or nullified his issues. Just that it accentuated it. Shuffle things around a bit and maybe he averages 35 in India instead of 26. It's still not good. And tbh 35 is probably still pretty generous

Was addressing hurricane, thought that was clear

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Except Ashwin's name is not Ravindra

Oops. It isn't either

 

[Burgey]

I asked for his bowling record mate.

And for the record...just five years?? LMAOOOOOOOO. You've decided to grant a player atg standards after JUST 5 years of stats?

Cant blame you. India does have low standards when it comes to making their atg lineup considering their bowling history. Ofc one day i hope india can try catching up to Pakistan's ATG team

The man makes a few reasonable points here, none of which have been addressed in subsequent posts purporting to respond to him.

 

[h_hurricane]

The points he was making -

Pakistan's ATG team better than Indian team - mostly yes, and that is because of the strength of their pace bowling. The gap has reduced over the last decade or so though. But funnily, nobody was discussing that, and yet he brought it out of nowhere.

Granting Jadeja ATG status after 5 great years - Yeah, many people would debate that. But he brings something unique in history, a balanced spin bowling all rounder. Shakib by a fair bit and Sobers by light years, are ahead of him in batting. But it really can't be debated that he is better than either in spin bowling. So essentially comparing apples to oranges. Faulkner played some hundred years back though, and it is difficult to compare him with modern players.

 

[ankitj]

Faulkner was a batting all-rounder IMO

 

[ataraxia]

Faulkner was a batting all-rounder IMO

Only marginally. His FC bowling records are AFAIK the best of Saffas of his time.

 

[ankitj]

Hey, look, numbers ?

 

[Noumenon]

That isn't numbers. That's data sent to Gitmo and tortured till it agrees with its demented author.

 

[Noumenon]

Pakistan's ATG team better than Indian team - mostly yes,

Resoundingly not. Any fantasy Pak XI will have three decidedly better quicks in Wasim, Imran and Waqar. That leaves us with 8 more players where mano-a-mano the Indian XI looks vastly superior.

 

[Coronis]

Resoundingly not. Any fantasy Pak XI will have three decidedly better quicks in Wasim, Imran and Waqar. That leaves us with 8 more players where mano-a-mano the Indian XI looks vastly superior.

The gap between Pakistan’s and India’s bowling is significantly larger than the gap between their batting.

 

[Noumenon]

The gap between Pakistan’s and India’s bowling is significantly larger than the gap between their batting.

The gap between their bowling itself isn't as large as you'd like to think once you include spinners. Becomes massively skewed once you bring in the batting and the keeping.

 

[ataraxia]

Ind:

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni +
Kapil
Jadeja
Ashwin/Kumble
Srinath
Shami

Pak:

Hanif
Saeed
Younis
Javed
Inzamam
Mushtaq
Imran
Sarfaraz/whoever you want +
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar

Not much in the comparison. I'd say Pak cause pace bowling, but if it's on a turner then Ind may have a slight edge.

 

[h_hurricane]

Interestingly, India has a better win-loss ratio from 1971 onwards, the year in which the first ATGs(Sunil Gavaskar and Imran Khan) for both the countries debuted.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[ankitj]

Interestingly, India has a better win-loss ratio from 1971 onwards, the year in which the first ATGs(Sunil Gavaskar and Imran Khan) for both the countries debuted.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Interesting. Why did India take longer to start winning than Pakistan?

 

[_00_deathscar]

the moderation team has taken this into account and...no. not quite.

But the moderation team is wrong, so there’s that...

 

[Noumenon]

Back to Jadeja to increase the IQ - irritability quotient - of this thread.

What would be more difficult for Jadeja in the 2nd half of his career? Replicate his bowling feat from the 1st half of his career or pull his batting average up to 40 and thereabouts?

And if Jadeja does manage to end with 400 wickets and ~4500 runs at 40 then would he be equal to Sobers?

 

[ankitj]

Looking at it decade wise, Pakistan had better W/L in 50s, 80s and 90s. All other decades India did better, even 70s which surprised me.

 

[_00_deathscar]

He never really played there in his prime (2002-2007).

Did he hurt his fingernail too?

 

[h_hurricane]

Interesting. Why did India take longer to start winning than Pakistan?

50's and 60's were generally terrible decades for India. We won in NZ yes, against a weak team but were very poor outside that. Pakistan was far more competitive then.
Also, early Indian teams did not have some one like Fazal Mahmood who was world class.

There is also the matter of pre-independence record only factored in India's stats.

 

[CricAddict]

Pontinf being bad in india isn't as much a factor as it's made out. He never really played there in his prime (2002-2007). The only time Aus went there in 2004 he was injured.

This unfortunate situation is not just limited to Ponting and Warne. Sources say Don Bradman was injured and not in his prime in his last test innings. Could have got a triple century instead of a duck if not.