The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[bagapath]

Nah.. I would say Imran is the greatest bowling all rounder, Sobers the greatest batting all rounder and Miller the most pure all rounder (can make the side as a batsman/bowler)

Miller and Sir Ian Botham....

No one else can even dream of 14 test hundreds and 27 five-fers.

 

[honestbharani]

Yes.. at his peak, Botham definitely.

 

[stephen]

Incidentally Stephen presumably Morris and Langer would open for your thirds?

Interesting Michael Clarke really rated Michael Slater's batting on his podcast, the other often forgotten Aussie opener.

Morris was within a whisker of making the 2nds. Just beaten out by the other two.

Langer, Slater and Taylor all have claims for the 3rds side. Like I said, Australia has had a lot of talented openers over the years.

Even Hayden/Trumper is debatable for the firsts, but I went with them because I would rather have them in a side batting for my life than the others. Marginally.

 

[stephen]

The Windies teams are missing Headley but maybe you feel he didn't play enough tests.

Anyway, I've been thinking about the bowling attack for the first XI and as ***y as having four fast bowlers is, for balance I'd rather have Gibbs in there in place of one of the four. Sobers does not cut it as a world class spinner whereas Gibbs was a gun through the 1960s.

Greenidge
Worrell*
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Gibbs

Yeah I forgot Headley. He probably takes the place of Walcott in the first XI who then takes the place of Gayle in the second XI, Worrell moving to opener and Walcott batting at 3.

 

[stephen]

Aussie 3rd XI

Langer
Ponsford
Hill
Walters
McCabe
Noble
Haddin +
Benaud *
M.Johnson
Thomson
Spofforth


Better than many other teams' second XIs and can actually compete with most first XIs

That pace attack would be a nightmare to face. Wouldn't necessarily get you out but you'd be quaking in your boys with Johnson from one end and Thompson from the other.

 

[stephen]

South Africa will form an interesting 2nd XI.

 

[bagapath]

The Windies teams are missing Headley but maybe you feel he didn't play enough tests.

Anyway, I've been thinking about the bowling attack for the first XI and as ***y as having four fast bowlers is, for balance I'd rather have Gibbs in there in place of one of the four. Sobers does not cut it as a world class spinner whereas Gibbs was a gun through the 1960s.

Greenidge
Worrell*
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Gibbs

The tough call is always between Holding and Garner for the third spot. Marshall and Ambrose should definitely be the opening bowlers for the Windies XI, if not for any all time XI. Then it becomes difficult to fix on the third bowler because both Holding and Garner were as good as each other and also they were not really inferior to Macko and Amby either. It is definitely a toss up. There is no logical way to split them.

 

[stephen]

Fair rationale I suppose, just doesn't sit well with me since I consider Miller a greatest Test cricketer than Border. Don't get me wrong, both were ATGs, but Miller is with Imran as one of the two greatest bowling all-rounders of all time, and with Imran arguably the most pure all-rounder.

The way I look at Miller is that he is like a better Shane Watson - one who was capable of opening the attack. The question is, who does he replace. I'm not convinced he can force his way into the top 7, so he comes in at the expense of a bowler. The weakest bowler in this side is Davidson, who just happens to provide left-arm variety, has a bowling average of 20 and who was fairly good with the bat himself.

I can't fit Miller into Australia's AT XI without either weakening the batting (if he bats top 7) or the bowling (if he bats 8). And I genuinely rate him as the best all rounder Australia has produced and the best bowling all rounder behind Imran. That's how competitive an all time XI is when you have 130 years of history to cover.

 

[stephen]

The tough call is always between Holding and Garner for the third spot. Marshall and Ambrose should definitely be the opening bowlers for the Windies XI, if not for any all time XI. Then it becomes difficult to fix on the third bowler because both Holding and Garner were as good as each other and also they were not really inferior to Macko and Amby either. It is definitely a toss up. There is no logical way to split them.

With Gibbs in the first XI you would have a second XI bowling attack without a spinner. In which case Hooper becomes an all round option, probably at the expense of Lloyd.

 

[stephen]

Aussie 3rd XI

Langer
Ponsford
Hill
Walters
McCabe
Noble
Haddin +
Benaud *
M.Johnson
Thomson
Spofforth


Better than many other teams' second XIs and can actually compete with most first XIs

Johnson was in my Australian 2nd XI as the first change bowler.

 

[stephen]

Forgot entirely about Bill Johnson. Which left-handed Johnson was better? The stats say Bill but Mitchell I feel was the bigger match-winner. Tough choice.

 

[Days of Grace]

With Gibbs in the first XI you would have a second XI bowling attack without a spinner. In which case Hooper becomes an all round option, probably at the expense of Lloyd.

You would have to select Valentine or Ramindin.

 

[Days of Grace]

The tough call is always between Holding and Garner for the third spot. Marshall and Ambrose should definitely be the opening bowlers for the Windies XI, if not for any all time XI. Then it becomes difficult to fix on the third bowler because both Holding and Garner were as good as each other and also they were not really inferior to Macko and Amby either. It is definitely a toss up. There is no logical way to split them.

I felt that Ambrose and Garner were similar as bowlers so went for the smooth run up and lightning pace of Holding.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

I'll start with Aus:

First:
Hayden
Trumper
Bradman
Ponting
Chappell G
Border (c)
Gilchrist (wk)
Warne
Davidson
Lillee
McGrath

2nd:
Simpson
Lawry
Harvey
Clarke
Waugh S (c)
Hussey
Healy (wk)
Miller
Johnson
Lind wall
O'Reilly

Charlie Macartney for Clarke or Hussey in the second XI

 

[Coronis]

charlie macartney for clarke or hussey in the second xi

tpc.

 

[Red]

1st

Trumper
Lawry
Bradman
G.Chappell
Miller
Harvey
Gilchrist
Warne
Lillee
OReilly
McGrath

2nd

Simpson
Morris
Ponting
McCabe
Border
S.Waugh
Healy
Davidson
Lindwall
Grimmett
Johnson

3rd

Warner
Woodfull
I.Chappell
Ponsford
Clarke
Armstrong
Gregory
Benaud
Oldfield
McDonald
Thomson

 

[mr_mister]

Forgot entirely about Bill Johnson. Which left-handed Johnson was better? The stats say Bill but Mitchell I feel was the bigger match-winner. Tough choice.

What do we really know about Bill's* match winning ability though

 

[stephen]

1st

Trumper
Lawry
Bradman
G.Chappell
Miller
Harvey
Gilchrist
Warne
Lillee
OReilly
McGrath

2nd

Simpson
Morris
Ponting
McCabe
Border
S.Waugh
Healy
Davidson
Lindwall
Grimmett
Johnson

3rd

Warner
Woodfull
I.Chappell
Ponsford
Clarke
Armstrong
Gregory
Benaud
Oldfield
McDonald
Thomson

How did Hayden not make your top 3 sides?

 

[The Battlers Prince]

How did Hayden not make your top 3 sides?

Monk doesn't like Haydos

 

[Red]

How did Hayden not make your top 3 sides?

I don't think he's better than any of the six openers I've picked.