The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[jimmy101]

I don't think he's better than any of the six openers I've picked.

Old Spoffers and Terror Turner are a bit stiff not to get a look in. Who would make your Australian 4th XI?

 

[Red]

Old Spoffers and Terror Turner are a bit stiff not to get a look in. Who would make your Australian 4th XI?

Hard to judge those early era guys I reckon. I dont usually include the. I think CTB Turner was a true great, and at times you could argue he should be in a first XI. Perhaps it's better to have pre WW1 guys in their own XIs.

4th XI

Langer (although I'll concede Hayden here if I have to, but I'd have Langer over him)
Taylor
Macartney
M.Waugh
Hassett
Noble
Grout
Johnson
Gillespie
McKenzie
MacGill

 

[watson]

1. Bob Simpson 2. Victor Trumper 3. Don Bradman 4. Greg Chappell. 5. Keith Miller 6. Allan Border* 7. Adam Gilchrist 8. Alan Davidson 9. Shane Warne 10. Dennis Lillee 11. Bill O'Reilly


1. Arthur Morris 2. Bill Lawry 3. Ricky Ponting 4. Neil Harvey 5. Charlie Macartney 6. Steve Waugh 7. Ian Healy 8. Richie Benaud* 9. Ray Lindwall 10. Fred Spofforth 11. Glenn McGrath


1. Matthew Hayden 2. Justin Langer 3. Clem Hill 4. Stan McCabe 5. Michael Clarke* 6. Doug Walters 7. Rod Marsh 8. Jack Gregory 9. Mitchell Johnson 10. Hugh Trumble 11. Clarrie Grimmett


Team 1 and 2 pick themselves.

Would like to have included Oldfield in Team 3 but there is a lack of bowling No.7s. Noble came close, but his off-breaks weren't a patch on Trumble's who was even more highly regarded than Terror Turner. In the end I went for batting depth which is a must in ATG sides.

CB Fry called Trumble ‘one of the greatest bowlers of all time, a cunning and long-headed adversary.’ According to Johnny Moyes, while most bowlers attacked the weakness of the batsman Trumble fed to the opposition’s strength, challenging the ambition. Moyes ranked this “imperturbable and resourceful bowler as one of the immortals of the art.”

Trumble’s lanky build, long bones, prominent nose and large ears led Plum Warner to describe him as ‘that great camel’. He bowled his off-spinners at almost medium-pace, making the most of his height. Monty Noble described his approach to the wicket as ‘sidelong and insinuating, with his neck craned like a gigantic bird’. He bowled over after over, keeping an impeccable length, using his long fingers to turn the ball sharply. He could also swing the new ball, varied his pace, and had a very well-disguised slower delivery. He revelled in the softer pitches of England, becoming almost impossible to play on the wet ones. Although he had to work harder for wickets on the Australian wickets, he was always a handful to face

http://www.cricketcountry.com/artic...first-great-off-spinner-in-test-history-26270

Not much between Johnson, Thomson, McDermott, McKenzie and McDonald for the second fast-bowler spot. But I liked the variety that the left-armer brings, plus Johnson could bat. Gregory and Johnson swinging away at 8 and 9 would bring many useful runs. Every ATG attack has to have a fast bowling duo. It's mandatory I reckon which is why a medium paced bowler like Bill Johnston missed out.

 

[Zinzan]

My Aust 1st XI

Morris
Trumper
Bradman
Ponting
Chappell
Miller
Gilchrist +
Davidson
Warne*
Lillee
McGrath

Really undecided on the opener to partner Trumper from Hayden, Simpson, Lawry & Morris, could have easily gone for one of the others on another day.

 

[Teuton]

My top 5 teams:
ML Hayden WH Ponsford WM Lawry WM Woodfull MA Taylor
VT Trumper RB Simpson AR Morris JL Langer DA Warner
DG Bradman C Hill CG Macartney AL Hassett DC Boon
GS Chappell RN Harvey SJ McCabe SPD Smith IM Chappell
RT Ponting AR Border MJ Clarke MEK Hussey NC O'Neill
KR Miller SR Waugh KD Walters JM Gregory WW Armstrong
AC Gilchrist IA Healy RW Marsh MA Noble G Giffen
SK Warne AK Davidson R Benaud H Trumble D Tallon
DK Lillee RR Lindwall GD McKenzie JM Blackham MG Johnson
CV Grimmett WJ O'Reilly JR Thomson TM Alderman B Lee
GD McGrath FR Spofforth CTB Turner BA Reid CJ McDermott

 

[Teuton]

Sans good formatting

 

[Zinzan]

Gillespie > McDermott.

 

[stephen]

Gillespie > McDermott.

No way.

McDermott was a better bowler and had to lead a worse attack than the one Gillespie participated in. Dizzy was really good for a short period (between about 01 and 04) while McDermott was our best bowler for a lot longer.

 

[Days of Grace]

Can't see why Trumper seems a lock in everyone's first XI apart from romanticism.

Sure he played some ATG innings but if you adjust his average upwards according to the era he played in he probably averages late 40s. So he's in the discussion but not sure if he's a lock-in.

 

[watson]

Can't see why Trumper seems a lock in everyone's first XI apart from romanticism.

Sure he played some ATG innings but if you adjust his average upwards according to the era he played in he probably averages late 40s. So he's in the discussion but not sure if he's a lock-in.

But isn't that the point of cricket?

 

[Coronis]

But isn't that the point of cricket?

Nah.

 

[Red]

Can't see why Trumper seems a lock in everyone's first XI apart from romanticism.

Sure he played some ATG innings but if you adjust his average upwards according to the era he played in he probably averages late 40s. So he's in the discussion but not sure if he's a lock-in.

I dont put much stock in adjusted averages but Trumper's average for the era he played in was cream of the crop.

And as for romanticism, there might be some of that, but Trumper was considered to be clearly the best batsman of his era (post Grace and pre Hobbs) and he was the greatest on the most difficult wickets of his time.

Victor Trumper died at Sydney on June 28, 1915. Of all the great Australian batsmen Victor Trumper was by general consent the best and most brilliant. No one else among the famous group, from Charles Bannerman - thirty-nine years ago - to Bardsley and Macartney at the present time, had quite such remarkable powers. To say this involves no depreciation of Clem Hill, Noble, or the late WL Murdoch. Trumper at the zenith of his fame challenged comparison with Ranjitsinhji. He was great under all conditions of weather and ground. He could play quite an orthodox game when he wished to, but it was his ability to make big scores when orthodox methods were unavailing that lifted him above his fellows.

For this reason Trumper was, in proportion, more to be feared on treacherous wickets than on fast, true ones.

I rate the guys who succeed in the most difficult conditions or against the most difficult opposition to be the best. It's what stands between a great and an ATG imo

 

[Slifer]

The "almost great XI" has got me thinking we should do a forest and 2nd XI for each nation, with more focus on the second XI.

I'll start with Aus:

First:
Hayden
Trumper
Bradman
Ponting
Chappell G
Border (c)
Gilchrist (wk)
Warne
Davidson
Lillee
McGrath

2nd:
Simpson
Lawry
Harvey
Clarke
Waugh S (c)
Hussey
Healy (wk)
Miller
Johnson
Lindwall
O'Reilly

Australia has been blessed with some fine players over the years. I couldn't find a place for Grimmet or Spofforth and our first choice batting order had to shift down one place to accommodate Bradman.

The hardest places though we're the openers. Australia has had many fine openers so I settled on Hayden and Trumper as the first choice pairing and Simpson and Lawry as the second choice.

The second choice team would be highly competitive against any other side IMO.

West Indies:

1st:
Hayne
Greenidge
Richards (c)
Lara
Walcott
Sobers
Dujon (wk)
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Ambrose

2nd XI:
Hunte
Gayle
Worrell (c)
Weekes
Lloyd
Chanderpaul
Jacobs (wk)
Gibbs
Walsh
Roberts
Hall

This 2nd team is immense. I can't imagine too many batsmen wanting to face that pace lineup. The batting is fantastic too.

I'd love to watch those 2nd XIs face off.

Wi first xi

Hunte
Greenidge
Headley
Richards*
Lara
Sobers
Walcott+
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Garner

2nd xi

Fredricks
Haynes
Weekes
Worrell*
Chanderpaul
Lloyd
Dujon+
Roberts
Bishop
Croft
Walsh

3rd xi

Stollmeyer
Gayle
Kanhai
Richardson*
Nurse
Kallicharan
Jacobs+
Hall
S. Clarke
Ramadhin
Gibbs

 

[stephen]

I really hate this fascination everyone has with giving Walcott the gloves. His average with the gloves was way below his career average and by all reports his keeping was soso. There are enough great WI keepers to play Walcott as a batsman or not at all.

 

[Slifer]

Ok so just swap Dujon for Walcott

 

[Zinzan]

I really hate this fascination everyone has with giving Walcott the gloves. His average with the gloves was way below his career average and by all reports his keeping was soso. There are enough great WI keepers to play Walcott as a batsman or not at all.

Are there really though? I mean apart from Dujon, who averaged merely 30 with the bat in spite of being a fine gloveman, who else?

I'd definitely be selecting Walcott there.

 

[watson]

01. Gordon Greenidge
02. Conrad Hunte
03. George Headley
04. Brian Lara
05. Viv Richards
06. Garry Sobers
07. Jeff Dujon
08. Malcolm Marshall
09. Andy Roberts
10. Curtly Ambrose
11. Lance Gibbs

I know that Holding was faster than Roberts in speed trials and what have you. But up until 1980 I don't that there was much doubt who the real leader of the attack was. Saw them both live at the Oval in 1976, and admittedly I wasn't very old, but Roberts was the star to me. Just awesome. I'm sure that David Hookes' jaw would concur.

01. Desmond Haynes
02. Roy Fredericks
03. Rohan Kanhai
04. Everton Weekes
05. Clyde Walcott
06. Frank Worrell
07. Learie Constantine
08. Jackie Hendriks
09. Michael Holding
10. Joel Garner
11. Alf Valentine


01. Jeff Stollmeyer
02. Chris Gayle
03. Richie Richardson
04. Seymour Nurse
05. Clive Lloyd
06. Shivnarine Chanderpaul
07. Deryck Murray
08. Ian Bishop
09. Wes Hall
10. Sonny Ramadhin
11. Courtney Walsh

 

[jimmy101]

Surprised too see someone such as Wes Hall in the 3rd XI, not that Garner & Holding don't deserve their respective spots in the 2nd XI. Back in the 50's & 60's though, big Wes was undoubtedly the leader and star of that Windies bowling attack.

 

[bagapath]

SA First XI

Barry Richards
Graeme Smith (c)
Jacques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
AB de Villiers
George Aubrey Faulkner
Mark Boucher (wk)
Shaun Pollock
Dale Steyn
Hugh Tayfield
Allan Donald

SA Second XI

Gary Kirsten
Bruce Mitchell
Hashim Amla
Dudley Nourse Jr (C)
Herbie Taylor
Q de Kock (wk)
Mike Procter
Peter Pollock
Vernon Philander
Neil Adcock
Bert Vogler

 

[jimmy101]

Procter belongs in that first XI, probably ahead of Shaun Pollock.