The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[OverratedSanity]

*customary Amla>AB post*

 

[stephen]

Would have thought Fannie De Villiers would be somewhere around these two teams tbh.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Procter belongs in that first XI, probably ahead of Shaun Pollock.

I agree with this, not because he's better, but the fact he adds a different variety with his "bowling off the wrong foot" thing

 

[harsh.ag]

I agree with this, not because he's better, but the fact he adds a different variety with his "bowling off the wrong foot" thing

So does Pollock though. Donald and Steyn are very different bowlers to Pollock.

But I can see why someone would want that.

The deciding factor is who takes the new ball. If it's Donald and Steyn, then Procter is probably the better choice. If Steyn is first change because of his reverse skills, then Pollock provides a great variety with the new ball with Donald (as we all know well).

 

[Red]

I agree with this, not because he's better, but the fact he adds a different variety with his "bowling off the wrong foot" thing

I don't mind either way. Hard to split the two and either would add something different bowling with Steyn and Donald. I'd lean slightly towards Procter, especially with Kallis in the team as an extra bowler, and two spinners in my XI. Procter's FC stats were amazing, but Pollock should never be underestimated either.

Smith *
Richards
Kallis
G.Pollock
DeVilliers +
Nourse
Faulkner
Procter
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald

 

[watson]

The great Erapalli Prasanna nominates his favourite XI spin bowlers for ESPN. In order they are;

01. Subhash Gupte
02. Shane Warne
03. Muttiah Muralitharan
04. Graeme Swann
05. Bhagwan Chandrasekhar
06. Bishan Bedi
07. Harbhajan Singh
08. Abdul Qadir
09. Saqlain Mushtaq
10. Lance Gibbs
11. Ashley Mallet


Graeme Swann at No.4 is a bit of a surprise, but Prasanna should know a good offie when he sees one.

 

[watson]

.

 

[watson]

01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Virender Sehwag
03. Rahul Dravid
04. Sachin Tendulkar
05. Virat Kohli*
06. Vinoo Mankad
07. Kapil Dev
08. Syed Kirmani+
09. Amar Singh
10. Zaheer Khan
11. Subhash Gupte

 

[jimmy101]

Would love to see an ODI tri-series between the three greatest non-test playing nations.

Kenya

Ravi Shah
Kennedy Otieno +
Steve Tikolo
Tanmay Mishra
Maurice Odumbe
Collins Obuya
David Obuya
Jimmy Kamande
Thomas Odoyo
Peter Ongondo
Aasif Karim

Ireland

Ed Joyce
William Porterfield
Paul Stirling
Eoin Morgan
Kevin O'Brien
Niall O'Brien +
Kyle McCallan
Trent Johnston
Alex Cusack
George Dockrell
Boyd Rankin


Afghanistan

Javed Ahmadi
Nawroz Mangal
Asghar Stankzai
Samiullah Shenwari
Mohammad Shahzad +
Mohammad Nabi
Noor Ali
Mirwais Ashraf
Rashid Khan
Dalwat Zadran
Hamid Hassan

A tough call. Tempting to say Afghanistan wins this one, but Ireland, with Morgan & Rankin in their ATG lineup are very strong. Don't forget the Kenyans either, the nucleus of their team have beaten the likes of WI and Sri Lanka in world cups. Who do you think would come out on top?

 

[Zinzan]

Would love to see an ODI tri-series between the three greatest non-test playing nations.

Kenya

Ravi Shah
Kennedy Otieno +
Steve Tikolo
Tanmay Mishra
Maurice Odumbe
Collins Obuya
David Obuya
Jimmy Kamande
Thomas Odoyo
Peter Ongondo
Aasif Karim

Ireland

Ed Joyce
William Porterfield
Paul Stirling
Eoin Morgan
Kevin O'Brien
Niall O'Brien +
Kyle McCallan
Trent Johnston
Alex Cusack
George Dockrell
Boyd Rankin


Afghanistan

Javed Ahmadi
Nawroz Mangal
Asghar Stankzai
Samiullah Shenwari
Mohammad Shahzad +
Mohammad Nabi
Noor Ali
Mirwais Ashraf
Rashid Khan
Dalwat Zadran
Hamid Hassan

A tough call. Tempting to say Afghanistan wins this one, but Ireland, with Morgan & Rankin in their ATG lineup are very strong. Don't forget the Kenyans either, the nucleus of their team have beaten the likes of WI and Sri Lanka in world cups. Who do you think would come out on top?

Ireland by miles.....

 

[the big bambino]

From memory Trumpers ave was 13 higher than his era's average. I'd score it a little higher still bcos he necessarily played the bulk of his games against his best opponent. I'd adjust his average to the low 50s in modern terms.

 

[Zinzan]

I think that's fair ^.

 

[watson]

From memory Trumpers ave was 13 higher than his era's average. I'd score it a little higher still bcos he necessarily played the bulk of his games against his best opponent. I'd adjust his average to the low 50s in modern terms.

I think that Ryder and Collins were probably the Adam Voges of their era in that their averages were disproportionate to their talent. That being the case Victor Trumper is in the top bracket of Australian batsman during the first 50 years of Test cricket on averages alone.

If you add the fact that his Strike Rate was mostly likely around the 70 mark on uncovered pitches, and consider the hundreds of eye-witness accounts and stories testifying to his attacking brilliance, then Trumper should be considered greater than his nearest rivals, Macartney, Bardsley and Hill.

According to the article below Trumper's average would be about the 49-50 mark in modern terms. This would put him along-side Woodfull, Ponsford, Morris, Lawry, Simpson, Hayden and Warner in the pantheon of great Australian openers. But again, factor in his Strike Rate and numerous eye-witness accounts then Trumper surpasses them all.

From Trumper to Warner, comparing apples to oranges

Table 1: Top 10 Test batting averages, 1877-1926
1. Jack Ryder – 20 Tests, 51.63. [career exclusively post-WW1, 1920-28]
2. Herbie Collins – 19 Tests, 45.03. [career exclusively post-WW1,1920-26]
3. Charlie Macartney – 35 Tests, 41.78. [career both sides of WW1, 1907-26]
4. Warren Bardsley – 41 Tests, 40.48. [career both sides of WW1, 1909-26]
5. Clem Hill – 49 Tests, 39.2. [career exclusively pre-WW1, 1896-1912]
6. Victor Trumper – 48 Tests, 39.05. [career exclusively pre-WW1, 1899-1912]
7. Warwick Armstrong – 50 Tests, 38.69. [career both sides of WW1, 1901-21]
8. Vernon Ransford – 20 Tests, 37.84. [career exclusively pre-WW1, 1907-12]
9. Charlie Kelleway – 26 Tests, 37.42. [career both sides of WW1, 1909-28]
10. Jack Gregory – 24 Tests, 36.97 [career exclusively post-WW1, 1920-28]


Table 2: Top 12 Test batting averages, 1927-76
1. Don Bradman – 52 Tests, 99.94. [1928-48]
2. Neil Harvey – 79 Tests, 48.41. [1947-63]
3. Doug Walters – 74 Tests, 48.26. [1965-81]
4. Bill Ponsford – 29 Tests, 48.23. [1924-34]
5. Stan McCabe – 39 Tests, 48.21. [1930-38]
6. Bill Lawry – 67 Tests, 47.15. [1961-70]
7. Bob Cowper – 27 Tests, 46.84 [1964-68]
8. Bob Simpson – 62 Tests, 46.82. [1957-78]
9. Bill Brown – 22 Tests, 46.82. [1934-48]
10. Lindsay Hassett – 43 Tests, 46.56. [1938-53]
11. Arthur Morris – 46 Tests, 46.49. [1946-55]
12. Bill Woodfull – 35 Tests, 46.00. [1926-34]


Table 3: Top 12 Test batting averages, 1977-2016
1. Steve Smith – 39 Tests, 57.90. [career continuing]
2. Greg Chappell – 87 Tests, 53.86. [1970-84]
3. Ricky Ponting – 168 Tests, 51.85. [1995-2013]
4. Mike Hussey – 79 Tests, 51.53. [2006-12]
5. David Warner – 49 Tests, 51.34. [career continuing]
6. Steve Waugh – 168 Tests, 51.06. [1985-2004]
7. Matt Hayden – 103 Tests, 50.74. [1994-2011]
8. Allan Border – 156 Tests, 50.56. [1978-2004]
9. Michael Clarke – 119 Tests, 49.11. [2004-15]
10. Adam Gilchrist – 96 Tests, 47.61. [1999-2011]
11. Dean Jones – 52 Tests, 46.55. [1986-1992]
12. Damian Martyn – 67 Tests, 46.38. [1992-2006]


Of the 10 Aussie batsmen to average over 50 in Tests, eight have achieved this in the past 40 years, and seven in the past 20-25 years. This also assumes that Smith and Warner more or less retain their current productivity.

Are these guys really better than the ones that went before? Or are they enjoying the greater benefits of improved technology?

I don’t know for sure, but I think there has to be a counter-balance somewhere. I think sometimes that when converting to today’s conditions, Hill and Trumper are worth a 10 point increase in their averages, to 49.22 and 49.05 respectively. This makes them seriously good players.

From Trumper to Warner, comparing apples to oranges | The Roar

 

[jimmy101]

Here's a little write-up, a few thoughts on the progression of who was/is regarded as the greatest batsman produced by each nation, chronologically. My personal opinion only.

AUSTRALIA - WL Murdoch > VT Trumper > DG Bradman

Way back when, in the 1870's, Billy Murdoch was universally regarded as the greatest batsman from the colony, a fact solidified by testimonials from the Champion himself, WG Grace. Murdoch was Australia's finest in 1877 & this continued until his retirement from the game. Since his exit, no other batsman from Australia (apart from Joe Darling, maybe) outshone the reputation of Murdoch until the advent of Victor Trumper. As outlined by watson above, Trumper was the consummate batsman of his era, capable of executing pretty much every shot in the book with grace & authority. A wet-wicket specialist who earned the utmost praise from both his contemporary colleagues and even former players. Post-Trumper, we arrive at the reign of the Don. 99.96... case closed.

ENGLAND - WG Grace > JB Hobbs > L Hutton

Not everyone will agree with this one, but that's great because I'd like to hear what others think. But this in my opinion is the most natural progression. Firstly, no-one would or could possibly object to WG Grace, who on his very own forged the fundamentals of modern batsmanship, being the greatest and most successful batsman the game had ever known up until the turn of the 20th century. In purely cricketing terms, Grace, of course, with his method of bringing down a straight bat, parallel with his front pad, is famous for inventing the forward defensive shot. Not only this, but Grace was also the only batsman of his time truly capable of playing both front foot shots and back foot shots, something that other batsmen of his day rarely ever did (they either were front or back foot players). There were some other notably superb & revolutionary English batsmen to emerge post-Grace, including Ranji, but it wasn't until very late into Jack Hobbs' Test career when the authors & journalists of the cricketing world began to elevate the Master into the golden pageant of all-time great batsmen. Hobbs, who had not only a superior average than Grace, but also eventually surpassed the old man's first class records, was noted especially for his mastery of wet wicket conditions due to his exemplary footwork. Post-Hobbs, we have Len Hutton, who was at least the equal of Hobbs, both in terms of statistics and reputation, if not his superior. Hutton also held the record for highest individual Test score for 20 years & is in my opinion the most complete batsman England has ever produced. Controversially, I have bypassed Wally Hammond here, who was regarded as second only to Bradman during his time. Even though Hammond, is one of the top 10 batsmen of all-time, in my opinion, he was not as great as Hobbs before him. Post-Hutton we have seen greats such as May, Barrington, Boycott, Gooch, KP & Cook. But, personally, none of them shone as brightly as Sir Leonard in the annals of Test history.

INDIA - CK Nayudu > VM Merchant > SM Gavaskar > SR Tendulkar

The somewhat unknown CK Nayudu, played a big hand in India's transition into a Test playing nation. It was Nayudu who famously thrashed a touring MCC squad in 1926, cementing his reputation as India's finest and most fearsome batsman. Nayudu's stature wasn't surpassed until Vijay Merchant arrived on the scene with a first-class average of 71.64 & an array of traditionally Indian cuts & late-cuts, with which he received great endearment from the British press. Merchant would have played more than 10 Tests had not there been health problems for the great batsman, as well as the onset of WW2 during his prime. Following Merchant, there was Polly Umrigar & Vijay Hazare, but neither of those batsman received as much acclaim as Merchant, or the great Sunny Gavaskar who followed suit, carrying not only the Indian innings, but the entire nation, on his shoulders during his career. Gavaskar, by the time of his retirement, held many FC records across India, as well as the record for most career Test match runs. Most usually, sequels fail to live up to the mark of the original, but in Sachin Tendulkar's case, the second Indian Little Master, has outshone the first. More attacking than Gavaskar, yet equally as textbook, Tendulkar would become so worshipped in his home nation that he would become known as the "God" of cricket. He is, though, truly India's GOAT batsman.

WEST INDIES - G Challenor > GA Headley > IVA Richards

Controversial choices here I know, but hear me out. Up first, George Challenor, an amatuer batsman, was the West Indies spearhead batsman in their pre-test years. He played a handful of Tests, including West Indies' debut in 1928, and averaged 38 at first-class level. His successor, George Headley, nicknamed Atlas, was unequivocally stratospheres beyond any other batsman produced by the Caribbean islands before the war. So prolific with the bat, Headley, along with his Indian colleagues Nayudu & Merchant, was instrumental in dispelling the myth that white man bats, black man bowls, and carried the West Indies to some of their earliest Test match wins. In my mind he is the Windies' second greatest of all-time. Some may argue (with good reason) that Garfield Sobers surpassed the feats of Headley. But Headley's FC & Test averages are much higher than Sobers', and Headley, of course, did not have the luxury of the kind of support Sobers did. Namely, the three W's, Kanhai, Nurse, Hunte, Butcher, Llyod & co. Also, Headley usually batted much higher in the order than Sobers. Moreover, first-class cricket was very limited in the Carribean during Headley's time, and so his incredible FC average of 69.86 mostly represents his scores from tour matches in England & Australia, as well as international teams that toured the West Indies. Notably, from a stats viewpoint, almost one quarter of Headley's FC matches were Tests. In my own subjective way, the only West Indian batsman to surpass the master strokes of the Black Bradman was big Viv, the Master Blaster. Despite an inferior average to Headley, Richards, for me, was greater due to his unflinching attitude of never backing down to a bowler. The aggression & might of Richards oversaw the rise of a West Indian dynasty, patrolled by its fearsome fast bowlers. Richards was by and large the king of his times, & made the big scores to prove it. His legacy outweighs that of even Brian Lara, who, although even more talented than Richards & equally as aggressive, was prone to spells of poor form. Lara was the Headley of the 90's & 00's.

SOUTH AFRICA - JH Sinclair > GA Faulkner > AD Nourse > RG Pollock

Sadly, I don't really know all that much about South Africa's early years, but Jimmy Sinclair, the first South African Test centurion, was the finest of his time and a truly aggressive batsman. In the 1900's, Sinclair fought on the British side in the Boer War. Amazingly, he was captured by the Boers but escaped in time to take part in South Africa's tour of England in 1901. Talk about dedication! Aubrey Faulkner was the next great batsman from the Union. As well as being a fine batsman with a Test average of 40, he was also famed for his googly bowling, which helped South Africa defeat England for the very first time. Faulkner's batting was more dynamic than that of Dave Nourse, but Dave's son Dudley would soon become the greatest fruit of South Africa's labour. Dudley Nourse would finish his celebrated Test career as South Africa's most prodigious run scorer with an average of 53.81. Without argument, Graeme Pollock would be the one to eventually inherit the mantle as South Africa's ATG. In a brief Test career he averaged 60, destroying England and Australia along the way, before politics robbed him of his prime. During the isolation years, he powered Transvaal to numerous Currie Cup wins, as well as scoring heavily for World XI in the early 70's, in WSC, as well as the rebel tours. His WSC & rebel tour escapades are both undocumented in his first class records. There have been many fine batsmen to emerge from South Africa since Pollock, including, most notably, Jacques Kallis. But Pollock still remains the father of South African batsmanship, and was indeed a technically sound, exceptionally textbook, batsman.

PAKISTAN - Hanif Mohammad > Zaheer Abbas > Javed Miandad

Hanif was Pakistan's weapon of choice during their formative years and enjoyed a Test career of nearly two decades. A batsman with a sound defence who possessed seemingly eternal wells of patience, the original Little Master, at one time held the records for the highest individual score in both Tests and first class matches. His 499 for Karachi in 1958, which broke the previous record set by Bradman, stood until 1994, when broken by Brian Lara. Post-Hanif, we arrive at Zaheer Abbas, who, if anything, probably was the equal of Hanif in both terms of influence and batting prowess. Zaheer was a classically wristy Asian batsman who, incredibly, could pierce the gap in any off-side field with a slight adaptation of his wrists. Abbas was an exemplary timer of the ball. Javed Miandad, also noted for his superb technique & control, would perhaps become the batsman that truly symbolised Pakistani cricket. Aggressive, fearless and energetic, Miandad was the backbone of the Pakistani lineup during their most-successful era and was successful in every corner of the globe. Since Javed, there have been many Pakistani batsmen who have nearly equalled Javed's feats, including Inzi, Yousuf & Younis, but for me Javed is still Pakistan's greatest offspring.

NEW ZEALAND - CS Dempster > B Sutcliffe > GM Turner > MD Crowe

Stewie Dempster, who was there when New Zealand played their debut Test in 1930, confirmed his reputation of being NZ's finest when he centuried at Lord's in 1931, & was named as one Wisden's cricketers of the year. His Test career was very short though, and so it is perhaps Bert Sutcliffe's longevity, as well as the accounts of him being termed as New Zealand's most productive and cultured batsman, that sees him assume the role of being New Zealand's greatest batsman post-Dempster. This was until the appearance Glenn Turner, who was even more prolific than Sutcliffe, & could have scored even more had he not elected to make himself unavailable for numerous Tests throughout his career. Finally, Martin Crowe, without a shadow of a doubt, was the greatest of all Kiwi batsmen and for many is the heart, soul and still the face of NZ cricket. By the time of his retirement he was the most celebrated and decorated of all NZ batsmen, but his greatness might one day be surpassed by Kane Williamson, if not already.

SRI LANKA - RL Dias > PA de Silva > KC Sangakkara

Mahadevan Sathasivam, who never played Test cricket, deserves a mention here for being Sri Lanka's finest during the 50's. However, upon Sri Lanka's elevation into the Test arena, Roy Dias was the finest batsman from the resplendent isle. Dias lead Sri Lanka's batting in the early 80's & it wasn't until the arrival of Aravinda de Silva when someone surpassed the feats of Dias. And surpass them Arvinda certainly would with runs a plenty, without doubt Aravinda's magnum opus was the 1996 WC final, a watershed moment for world cricket. The have been other greats from Sri Lanka, such as Ranatunga, Jayasuriya & Jayawardene, but it is Kumar Sangakkara who is now regarded, by not only myself, but pretty much everyone, as being correctly defined as Sri Lanka's GOAT with the bat. Sanga was a classical batsman who tirelessly chalked out high scores and never seemed to suffer any major lapses in form throughout his 15 year career.

ZIMBABWE - DL Houghton > A Flower

Both of these men debuted in the very first Test for Zimbabwe in '92, but Houghton was established long before Flower in the 80's. However, Flower's supreme average and nous sees him at No. 1 for me.

BANGLADESH - Habibul Bashar > Shakib Al Hasan

In 2000, Habibul was the nucleus of Bangladesh's batting & ended up retiring with a rather respectable Test average of 30 considering Bangladesh's early-years woes. Since then, Shakib has established himself as the main man who basically does everything in the team bar keeping wicket. Yes, I rate him more than Tamim, and the jury is still out on Mominul. Hope you enjoyed the read!

 

[honestbharani]

Awesome work, Jimmy... Utilizing the downtime well, I see. Excellent write up.

 

[honestbharani]

There was some post earlier in the thread that made me recall the time I used to buy the paperback cricinfo magazine, back at the time when it was still employing good writers, not just for the magazine but for play by plays and the site itself. And there was an article by Bob Woolmer on why Brian Lara was almost the perfect batsman to play spin bowling. He listed out 5 things that batsmen tend to try and do to play spin bowling well and he mentioned most good batsmen master 2 or 3 of the 5. And he said Brian had all 5 attributes right from the time he came on the scene and that is why he was almost impossible to bowl at as a spinner as long as his head was in the right place. He talked about playing late, reading the ball from the release, quick feet, power and something else. I have googled away for the past 20 mins but still am not able to find it. Can someone help me find it?

 

[jimmy101]

Awesome work, Jimmy... Utilizing the downtime well, I see. Excellent write up.

Thanks mate, hope your little niece is making a full recovery too.

 

[honestbharani]

yeah she s good. They had to give her stitches but they were removed earlier this week. So all fine now.

 

[harsh.ag]

Here's a little write-up, a few thoughts on the progression of who was/is regarded as the greatest batsman produced by each nation, chronologically. My personal opinion only.
WEST INDIES - G Challenor > GA Headley > IVA Richards

Controversial choices here I know, but hear me out. Up first, George Challenor, an amatuer batsman, was the West Indies spearhead batsman in their pre-test years. He played a handful of Tests, including West Indies' debut in 1928, and averaged 38 at first-class label. His successor, George Headley, nicknamed Atlas, was unequivocally stratospheres beyond any other batsman produced by the Caribbean islands before the war. So prolific with the bat, Headley, along with his Indian colleagues Nayudu & Merchant, was instrumental in dispelling the myth that white man bats, black man bowls, and carried the West Indies to some of their earliest Test match wins. In my mind he is the Windies' second greatest of all-time. Some may argue (with good reason) that Garfield Sobers surpassed the feats of Headley. But Headley's FC & Test averages are much higher than Sobers', and Headley, of course, did not have the luxury of the kind of support Sobers did. Namely, the three W's, Kanhai, Nurse, Hunte, Butcher, Llyod & co. Also, Headley usually batted much higher in the order than Sobers. Moreover, first-class cricket was very limited in the Carribean during Headley's time, and so his incredible FC average of 69.86 mostly represents his scores from tour matches in England & Australia, as well as international teams that toured the West Indies. Notably, from a stats viewpoint, almost one quarter of Headley's FC matches were Tests. In my own subjective way, the only West Indian batsman to surpass the master strokes of the Black Bradman was big Viv, the Master Blaster. Despite an inferior average to Headley, Richards, for me, was greater due to his unflinching attitude of never backing down to a bowler. The aggression & might of Richards oversaw the rise of a West Indian dynasty, patrolled by its fearsome fast bowlers. Richards was by and large the king of his times, & made the big scores to prove it. His legacy outweighs that of even Brian Lara, who, although even more talented than Richards & equally as aggressive, was prone to spells of poor form. Lara was the Headley of the 90's & 00's.

Good write up, jimmy!

Windies is of course the most contentious one. At the very least mention Sobers between Headley and Viv, you heartless bastard.

 

[Red]

Yeh, great write up Jimmy but you HAVE to put Sobers in there.

Second best batsman of all time IMO.