Racism - Social pariah or public consensus?

[social]

Interesting topic, I'm new here but decided to weigh in on this debate. As a law student in Qld so the discussion on FOS and Defamation peaked my interest. I'm impressed by Top_cats wealth of knowledge, however I'm going to disagree slightly.

Defamation isn't a good analogy for racial taunts. Because Defamation refers firstly to the publication of materials, and secondly where that material causes some form of damage, ie injuring the person or their character.

Its really surprising to hear the Free Speech arguement come up, because it doesn't really apply to Australian society. In Australia we have no Freedom of Speech rights listed in the constitution. I think people make the mistake of assuming we have a mirror of the US constitution, which we don't. The High Court implies some very limited FOS rights ie for political communication but the scope is narrow. Theres alot of legal debate that goes on, concerning just how far the government can censor the community.

I spent the last 3 months travelling through Europe, and find it surprising how quickly people jump on the bandwagon to critise. In almost every country I've travelled to you could find some element of racism. For example the Europeans are very negative to African immigrants. The only exception I found was the French who seemed to universally treat all foreigners poorly. It's also very difficult to argue it's a western phenomenon, I'd suggest people who argue that line need to travel more.

Accusations of racism can be the equivilent of loading a revolver and firing it at your foot. Firstly it gives attention to people who arn't worth additional thought. Also the moment you start branding and generalising large groups you set up camps of "you" and "us", people get agressive and hyper sentitise those issues. I've often heard South Africans argue that they shouldn't be judged becasue we don't understand the society they came from. A very good friend of mine is from SA, and talking to her I've come to understand that view is correct. It's apples and oranges. But the same thing applies to judging this incident, if you don't experience Australian culture yourself and just blanket brush it based on a media report you come across looking as abit of a bigeot.

As a side note, does anyone actually think this ICC inquiry will do anything?

Good first post.

As to your SA friend, it is consistent with my experiences. I have a very close friend (Pakistani) who naturally found the apartheid regime abhorrent but had no qualms about hurling insults at members of lower castes that dared to invade his personal space on the streets of Karachi.

Whilst one set of behaviour (apartheid) was institutionalised, the other (sectarianism) was cultural, IMO they are bad as each other. However, I'm speaking as an Australian where neither would be tolerated.

 

[social]

Republican. Check out the Jeb Bush govt. (Florida governor) simply refusing to enlist many black folks in the voter's list for the 99 election. Reason given was 'criminals shouldnt vote' but then again, i never believed that you should be stopped from voting if you are being accused of petty theft or trespassing.
US government history has a long history of racism-oriented discrimination. You can find out about it through historical sources.

Bush's decision was based on research relating to voters' demographics not racismi.e. he simply disenfranchised a group that was likely to vote against him.

Likewise, the portrayal of Pauline Hanson as a racist was as much a result of political manouvering of the Aus gov't of the day as it was to do with her policies. To cut a long story short, they persuaded the Aus media (who sought relaxations to media cross-ownership regulations in return) to portray this relatively uneducated fish-monger in the worst possible light in an attempt to quell her popularity.

 

[C_C]

Bush's decision was based on research relating to voters' demographics not racismi.e. he simply disenfranchised a group that was likely to vote against him.

Bull. Firstly,the implimentation of the 'law' was quite haphazard and a disproportionately large number of black folks got blackballed under its 'implementation' despite claims to the contrary.

Likewise, the portrayal of Pauline Hanson as a racist was as much a result of political manouvering of the Aus gov't of the day as it was to do with her policies. To cut a long story short, they persuaded the Aus media (who sought relaxations to media cross-ownership regulations in return) to portray this relatively uneducated fish-monger in the worst possible light in an attempt to quell her popularity.

Is she the one who said 'no boat people' ? Cried about OZ culture falling away to 'asians' ? If thats her, i've heard her defining speech and found much more in common with Aryan supremacy gibberish than any policy effected purely on meritorious basis.

 

[C_C]

I spent the last 3 months travelling through Europe, and find it surprising how quickly people jump on the bandwagon to critise. In almost every country I've travelled to you could find some element of racism. For example the Europeans are very negative to African immigrants. The only exception I found was the French who seemed to universally treat all foreigners poorly. It's also very difficult to argue it's a western phenomenon, I'd suggest people who argue that line need to travel more.

Accusations of racism can be the equivilent of loading a revolver and firing it at your foot. Firstly it gives attention to people who arn't worth additional thought. Also the moment you start branding and generalising large groups you set up camps of "you" and "us", people get agressive and hyper sentitise those issues. I've often heard South Africans argue that they shouldn't be judged becasue we don't understand the society they came from. A very good friend of mine is from SA, and talking to her I've come to understand that view is correct. It's apples and oranges. But the same thing applies to judging this incident, if you don't experience Australian culture yourself and just blanket brush it based on a media report you come across looking as abit of a bigeot.

Sorry but i beg to disagree on this normalist post.
For one, the claim 'you cannot judge if you wernt in my boots' is a slippery slope based on which one can't judge even a serial killer or a genocider.

For two, discrimination exists in every society in one form or another and in various levels. However, mass collective racism ( which is only one of the many forms of discrimination) is a distinctly western/european creation, spawning off ideologically in the misnamed 'age of enlightenment' and twistings of early Darwinian hypothesises and spread from there onwards to whereever they went in the age of colonisation and slavery.

 

[social]

Bull. Firstly,the implimentation of the 'law' was quite haphazard and a disproportionately large number of black folks got blackballed under its 'implementation' despite claims to the contrary.



Is she the one who said 'no boat people' ? Cried about OZ culture falling away to 'asians' ? If thats her, i've heard her defining speech and found much more in common with Aryan supremacy gibberish than any policy effected purely on meritorious basis.

So you think that Bush was more interested in the colour of the voters skin than whether they would vote him or not?

Dream on.

The guy may or may not be racist but he is still a politician and there is not the faintest chance in hell that he would disenfranchise a group of voters if he thought they would vote for him.

As for Pauline Hanson, you simply have no idea.

The 3 basic tenets of her policies were:

1. All Australians to have equal rights no matter what their race colour or creed - aimed squarely at the Aus gov't practice of buying off minorities, particularly Aborigines

2. Immigration to be based on merit rather than need of immigrants, i.e. no more refugees or "boat people."

3. No more immigrants if it was determined that their acceptance detracted from existing residents standard of living.

The issue of Asians only arose because of our acceptance of a significant no. of refugees from that region.

Unfortunately for her, she didnt have the brains/communications skills to mount a sustained argument and was eventually rail-roaded into an untenable position by a media doing largely the gov't's bidding.

This culminated with her being wrongfully jailed and eventually led to her being regarded as a folk hero of sorts by certain sections of the Aus public.

 

[howardj]

As a side note, does anyone actually think this ICC inquiry will do anything?

Absolutely not - I don't even think they expect anything really beneficial to come of it. But, like with Governments introducing draconian laws to 'fight' terrorism, it's all about being seen to be doing something. Even if that something will achieve absolutely nothing, and (in this case) unreasonably stain a whole cricket-loving community (Australia).

 

[parttimer]

What about the Japanese concept of 'identification', which aim is to keep foreigners out of Japan (their refugee intake is 0 and immigration rules are very strict), because Japanese people are "uncomfortable" somehow around pple of other races. Is that why foreign women can't travel on the Japanese subway without being groped? Or Indian subways for that matter?

And does anyone else notice the irony of CC's posting about racism when he clearly has a pathological dislike of Aussies. Take a look in the mirror pal

 

[Jono]

Social, the minute Pauline Hanson used the words "swamped by Asians" her campaign was dead and buried. The media portrayed her as is, an idiot. The fact that she ever got a seat is a taint on this nation credibility as far as I'm concerned.

 

[howardj]

Social, the minute Pauline Hanson used the words "swamped by Asians" her campaign was dead and buried.

That, and 'please explain', on Sixty Minutes that time.

 

[social]

Social, the minute Pauline Hanson used the words "swamped by Asians" her campaign was dead and buried. The media portrayed her as is, an idiot. The fact that she ever got a seat is a taint on this nation credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Pauline Hanson is an imbecile and the fact that she was elected, not to mention the drop-kicks that got on her band-wagon, is a sorry indictment upon the mentality of some of the electorate.

However, the media made her into something more than she ever was as a means of destroying whatever credibility she originally garnered.

 

[Smudge]

I've watched a few Australia vs. NZ games in Aus', and I personally have had to endlessly endure these really weak and sad old sheep-shagger jokes (especially at the 'Gabba). It's quite absurd considering what a minor element bovine farming is in the entire context of NZ

Errr, I think the word you were looking for was "ovine".

 

[Complicated]

C_C my point is that you can't judge a culture until you've experienced it, that distinction is important.

For example I see what happens in Isreal and Palestine (non western communities) and part of me wonders how man can be involved in such insanity, but I have no right to judge those people because I've never had to deal with the environments or pressures they have. Sit up on my high horse all I want, but in the end I'd be an ignorant man commenting on something I have no understanding of. From my experience Australia is very multi cultural and hardly ever intollerant, amongst the younger generations especially. If you've had different experiences share them, but you need to give real context which you've experienced -as other have- instead of western generalisations.

I also suggest that racism predates Darwin's theories by a great deal. Reading the old Testimant can be fascinating when viewed from the race angle.

I'm hoping one day soon we'll see young Asian Australians playing representive cricket the country. Does anyone know how likely this is to happen in the near future?

Howardj, how do you think the ICC enquiry will 'unreasonably stain a whole cricket-loving community (Australia)'. I can't see anything of substance coming from it, it's really up to Cricket Australia.

 

[C_C]

So you think that Bush was more interested in the colour of the voters skin than whether they would vote him or not?

Dream on.

The guy may or may not be racist but he is still a politician and there is not the faintest chance in hell that he would disenfranchise a group of voters if he thought they would vote for him.

Historically speaking, colored folks in florida tends to vote overwhelmingly for the Democrats.
Now extrapolate.

 

[C_C]

What about the Japanese concept of 'identification', which aim is to keep foreigners out of Japan (their refugee intake is 0 and immigration rules are very strict), because Japanese people are "uncomfortable" somehow around pple of other races. Is that why foreign women can't travel on the Japanese subway without being groped? Or Indian subways for that matter?

And does anyone else notice the irony of CC's posting about racism when he clearly has a pathological dislike of Aussies. Take a look in the mirror pal

Interesting. I am actually seeing an Aussie girl right now. And i dont know if they would reciprocate but i do consider some Aussies here ( Faaip, T_C, S_L) as friends.
I call it as i see it, political correctness be damned. And from my experience along with experience of several folks i know, OZ is significantly more racist ( ie, has a larger share of the minority i guess) than most western nations, perhaps barring southern US. Ofcourse since i've not experienced this personally, i hold this opinion loosely, subject to change if required but that is my impression of it so far.

 

[parttimer]

Interesting. I am actually seeing an Aussie girl right now. And i dont know if they would reciprocate but i do consider some Aussies here ( Faaip, T_C, S_L) as friends.
I call it as i see it, political correctness be damned. And from my experience along with experience of several folks i know, OZ is significantly more racist ( ie, has a larger share of the minority i guess) than most western nations, perhaps barring southern US. Ofcourse since i've not experienced this personally, i hold this opinion loosely, subject to change if required but that is my impression of it so far.

Well, now you hold the opinion loosely, before it was "all ozzies over 50 are racists". You're a joke

 

[33/3from3.3]

That's terrible Soapy no-one should be treated badly just coz they are from a different country or support a different team
or because they're short
http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost.php?p=680037&postcount=91
anyway

 

[social]

Historically speaking, colored folks in florida tends to vote overwhelmingly for the Democrats.
Now extrapolate.

So, he got rid of a group of people that were likely to vote for his opponent.

How is that racist?

 

[C_C]

So, he got rid of a group of people that were likely to vote for his opponent.

How is that racist?

Because he didnt target other communities save for the black ones ( hispanics are colored folks too according to the US).

 

[C_C]

Well, now you hold the opinion loosely, before it was "all ozzies over 50 are racists". You're a joke

Dont put words in my mouth- i said that almost all i've met personally have distinct racist tendencies from that age group and its expected, given the social climate when they were growing up.

 

[C_C]

C_C my point is that you can't judge a culture until you've experienced it, that distinction is important.

For example I see what happens in Isreal and Palestine (non western communities) and part of me wonders how man can be involved in such insanity, but I have no right to judge those people because I've never had to deal with the environments or pressures they have. Sit up on my high horse all I want, but in the end I'd be an ignorant man commenting on something I have no understanding of. From my experience Australia is very multi cultural and hardly ever intollerant, amongst the younger generations especially. If you've had different experiences share them, but you need to give real context which you've experienced -as other have- instead of western generalisations.

I also suggest that racism predates Darwin's theories by a great deal. Reading the old Testimant can be fascinating when viewed from the race angle.

I'm hoping one day soon we'll see young Asian Australians playing representive cricket the country. Does anyone know how likely this is to happen in the near future?

Howardj, how do you think the ICC enquiry will 'unreasonably stain a whole cricket-loving community (Australia)'. I can't see anything of substance coming from it, it's really up to Cricket Australia.

My question to you, is just how far down does the rabbit hole go with this 'you cant judge what you didnt experience' line of thought ?
Can we condemn Nazism or do we adopt the 'we cant judge that since we didnt live that' line of thought ?

As per racism in the OT, yes, you are right but Jews/Hebrews were always a minor group with minor consequences globally until the rise of Zionism. The racist doctrines of the OT flew under the radar outside of their small communities most of the time. But it was the 1500s Europe where one saw the mass propagation of racism based particularly on skin color.