Racism - Social pariah or public consensus?

[social]

Given that, kick those on visas out of the country and impose massive penalties on the rest. Simple!.

Let's take this one step at a time.

A visa, in Australian immigration parlance, is a temporary right of entry to Australia.

It is issued for a finite period and almost exclusively to those that can show tangible evidence of a concrete intention to leave e.g. return air ticket.

So where are they being punted to?

The place that they always intended to return to anyway.

Secondly, citizens of Aus or those that have a residency permits do not require visas. As such, they should simply cop an appropriately harsh penalty.

And finally, my good friend C_C, when defending the behaviour of people in the sub-continent, you claimed that it couldnt possibly be racism because that was not possible between 2 individuals of similar genetic make-up.

Yet, in the same thread, you claim that I am racist because of my views on these white South Africans.

Why dont you explain to me how my genetic make-up, as a caucasian Australian, differs from that of a caucasian South African.

Better yet, dont. You'll simply play the race card when logic fails you.

 

[luckyeddie]

Time for a time out again, fellas.

 

[C_C]

And finally, my good friend C_C, when defending the behaviour of people in the sub-continent, you claimed that it couldnt possibly be racism because that was not possible between 2 individuals of similar genetic make-up.

Yet, in the same thread, you claim that I am racist because of my views on these white South Africans.

Why dont you explain to me how my genetic make-up, as a caucasian Australian, differs from that of a caucasian South African.

Better yet, dont. You'll simply play the race card when logic fails you.

If you read properly, you'd find that i said i found similarity between your comments and those groups in the past . Not necessarily with white saffie immigrants.

 

[social]

If you read properly, you'd find that i said i found similarity between your comments and those groups in the past . Not necessarily with white saffie immigrants.

Right.

Given that every country in the world has the right to terminate temporary visitors' visas and most routinely exercise that right, I can only presume that it is your contention that the immigration policies of every country in the world have their origins in 1960s racists.

Or maybe you just failed to read my post and have simply dug a bigger hole for yourself as usual.

 

[C_C]

Right.

Given that every country in the world has the right to terminate temporary visitors' visas and most routinely exercise that right, I can only presume that it is your contention that the immigration policies of every country in the world have their origins in 1960s racists.

Or maybe you just failed to read my post and have simply dug a bigger hole for yourself as usual.

As usual, you miss the point - you immediately take the stance that since some Afrikaans words were uttered in abuse, the abusers 'must be Saffie expats or tourists and they should be booted back to where they came from'. You fail to see that many of them could easily be Aussie citizens and are as much 'aussie' as you are. You've used this condescending tone and innuendo about 'assimilate or f-off' attitude towards several other communities, most prominantly asians in the past and my reference was towards that.
And while you keep bringing up the Afrikaans uttered in Perth as some sort of normalisation or diffusion of responsibility, you fail to see that both RSA and SL have complained about racial abuse in OZ. In almost every single venue. Highly doubtful that in all the other venues the abuse directed was in Afrikaans, especially towards Sri Lankans!

As per digging a hole- everyone here can see who is digging the hole and who tends to argue about stuff that he/she has no clue about.

 

[social]

As usual, you miss the point - you immediately take the stance that since some Afrikaans words were uttered in abuse, the abusers 'must be Saffie expats or tourists and they should be booted back to where they came from'. You fail to see that many of them could easily be Aussie citizens and are as much 'aussie' as you are. You've used this condescending tone and innuendo about 'assimilate or f-off' attitude towards several other communities, most prominantly asians in the past and my reference was towards that.
And while you keep bringing up the Afrikaans uttered in Perth as some sort of normalisation or diffusion of responsibility, you fail to see that both RSA and SL have complained about racial abuse in OZ. In almost every single venue. Highly doubtful that in all the other venues the abuse directed was in Afrikaans, especially towards Sri Lankans!

As per digging a hole- everyone here can see who is digging the hole and who tends to argue about stuff that he/she has no clue about.

You obviously have at least a modicum of intelligence. However, that seemingly does not translate into an ability to interpret simple statements.

I stated that SA holders of (temporary) visas for Australia that are found guilty of hurling racial abuse should have their visas terminated and sent home - so far we seem to agree on that.

However, I also stated that the "rest", i.e. Aus citizens or holders of residents' permits, should face massive penalties - you conveniently ignore this fact in a futile attempt to portray me as a racist.

As for your other claims:-

1. I stated in one thread that, in my experience, certain Asians were the most racist people on earth - something that I am amply qualified to judge, having Asian relatives, lived in many parts of Asia, and travelled the world extensively.

2. You on the other hand, claim that the entire western world is racist (bar Canada and Norway, if Im not mistaken) and then defend the sub-continent from similar charges on the basis of semantics.

2. Other than that, every single one of your claims of racism towards anyone on this board can be traced back to one thing - you've lost an argument (politics, the economy, Murali, work practices in Indian steel mills to name a few).

I dont know whether youre immature, insecure or a combination but the fact is that you sprout off about a whole range of topics without any real experience of such and then fall back on the race card when proven incorrect.

It's truly pathetic.

Anyway, hopefully this thread will be closed now as Ive no desire to continue reading the views of someone whose opinion of Aus is tainted (to say the least) and formed on the basis of select newspaper articles (btw, since when did the media become a pillar of credibility?)

 

[dinu23]

don't u think it's ironic Ponting saying that spectators should be handed life bans when all these racist taunts originated from the aussie team it self.

 

[vic_orthdox]

don't u think it's ironic Ponting saying that spectators should be handed life bans when all these racist taunts originated from the aussie team it self.

What?

 

[Slow Love™]

One of the things I find annoying when it comes to this issue is the whole denial aspect of it (can we somehow put this all on the Saffie expats???). It doesn't seem implausible to me that Aussies not of South-African descent might have picked up the papers and read the terms used (I certainly did), and decided that if it was getting under the South African team's skins, so it was good to use. Your mileage may vary. Either way, even though it's certainly a minority of Australian cricket spectators, it's still a problem that needs to be dealt with. That both South Africa and Sri Lanka have complained about the racial abuse has to be of concern.

In Australia, race is often considered "on the table", when it comes to needling (the AFL had to deal with this concept very directly some years ago), and while it may not necessarily be driven by hatred, I believe that people should have the right to go to a cricket match and not be racially vilified - whether they are players or spectators. Even if, as in shounak's example, another party decides to "play along" and return in kind, it's not like anybody's asked permission first before it starts. If somebody's offended by racial taunts (which is hardly an unreasonable reaction), I don't see why they should have to put up with it because somebody nearby thinks turnabout is fair play.

On the ICC investigation, it sounds like a bit of a beat-up to me - I don't know exactly what they think they'll find. Cricket Australia is ready to go full-on draconian, and I'm not sure that we actually have global ICC regulations on this. Perhaps they'll look to introduce them, but I'm still not certain why an emissary has to be sent to come to that conclusion.

Oh, and one more thing. IMO, Ponting has handled this issue really well. He has made it perfectly clear that a) there is a problem, b) that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable, and necessitates zero tolerance. Hell, we can't even get our Prime Minister to acknowledge that the Cronulla riots had anything to do with race. Ponting's comments are useful, because I think that the people who dish out racial epiphets operate under the misconception that everybody bar the "self-hating elites" and "whining immigrants" all quietly agree that there's nothing that wrong about this kind of abuse. (Of course, some of them will assume that Ponting's under the control of the PC brigade, but what can ya do?)

 

[Slow Love™]

Right.

Given that every country in the world has the right to terminate temporary visitors' visas and most routinely exercise that right, I can only presume that it is your contention that the immigration policies of every country in the world have their origins in 1960s racists.

Or maybe you just failed to read my post and have simply dug a bigger hole for yourself as usual.

To be fair, it seems the problem might be that you earlier implied that it didn't matter whether those concerned were visitors or migrants in the context of being deported (and many of the South African expats in Perth have likely been settled for decades, anyhow). I thought it was Eddie that overtly drew the connection between the "ship them back to their own country" mentality and 1960's racists, rather than C_C. But I could be wrong.

 

[C_C]

1. I stated in one thread that, in my experience, certain Asians were the most racist people on earth - something that I am amply qualified to judge, having Asian relatives, lived in many parts of Asia, and travelled the world extensively.

2. You on the other hand, claim that the entire western world is racist (bar Canada and Norway, if Im not mistaken) and then defend the sub-continent from similar charges on the basis of semantics.

2. Other than that, every single one of your claims of racism towards anyone on this board can be traced back to one thing - you've lost an argument (politics, the economy, Murali, work practices in Indian steel mills to name a few).

I dont know whether youre immature, insecure or a combination but the fact is that you sprout off about a whole range of topics without any real experience of such and then fall back on the race card when proven incorrect.

It's truly pathetic.

Anyway, hopefully this thread will be closed now as Ive no desire to continue reading the views of someone whose opinion of Aus is tainted (to say the least) and formed on the basis of select newspaper articles (btw, since when did the media become a pillar of credibility?)

I dont like to toot my own horn but i will tell you one thing- I've lived in over a dozen different nations in my life, spanning over two dozen cities, have been to several dozen more for the duration of a month or so, always attended international school and i can find a friend or a friend's friend in most nations on this planet. So you can take your sanctimonious garbage elsewhere.

For two, the western world had the most entrenched and systematic racist policy ever implemented by mankind. The system lasted for hundreds of years and was dismantled only 30-40 years ago. As such, it takes far time than a few decades to wipe out centuries of biassed prejudices.

For three, i would suggest you learn your english properly or re-fresh your terminologies. Semantics is when one argues about fine-tuning a definition. But you are utterly confusing between caste(which has nothing to do with race) and racism. Both are forms of discrimination but racism is almost unheard of in the subcontinent, while caste system has been around for thousands of years and just like racism in the west, was dismantled 40-50 years ago by the government. And as such, it needs more time to come through with it. In my opinion, India has been handling the caste system far better than most western nations have been handling the racism situation. The west shunns it completely, which drives it underground, only to flare time and time again in short bursts. In India, caste system is systematically being disantled(and there is a long way to go, i grant that) through base educations and information about what the caste system stood for originally( what it was originally was a form of demographics, with no stigma or prejudice attached to it). But the prime reason for that is India's diversity. When you have a history and sense of unity amongst a few hundred cultural spheres and languages to operate under one common banner, it makes the job a whole lot easier than having a scenario in the west where there is 'one big guy' culturally and several 'little guys'.

And thirdly, i dont believe i've lost any argument with you and you'd find that several folks here agree with me. You had the gall to debate with me in matters of biomechanics and what is an optical illusion and what isnt, given that i am almost qualified enough to teach this stuff in highschools and colleges, especially the optical illusion part.
Your false sense of knowledge, harboured through being an ex-player is commonly encountered amongst sportsmen. But hey, you are free to make an **** outta yourself as much as you wish in matters you dont have fundamental understanding of. I would dare ya to show the debate about chucking between me and you to any biomechanical expert and see who he agrees with. Hell, i will offer you 100 bucks if you can get one to officially say you were right on that and i was wrong. But whats worse, you already have a pre-set agenda that is NOT supported by facts. Merely fiction. You had the gall to argue about me on why the margin of error is set at 15 degrees when most bowlers are found to be around 14 degrees max(including Murali), without knowing an iota about tolerance levels and margins of error and their implications on the overall barometer.

In short, you, who has zero clue about science, decieded to rubbish my opinions about science when i've been involved with post-highschool science for seven years. In short, eff off. I dont intend to lecture you on cricketing technique so dont presume to lecture me on scientific accuracy and its implications. Particularly not when other scientific personnel agree with me on this on this board and yer left on your own with a false sense of knowledge in matters you have very little clue about.

As per the race card- like i said, your philosophy is very akin to the official policy of western governments- deny its existance like a little kid yelling 'go away monster' and hoping its gone. Nevermind countless UN reports,human rights reports, etc. who openly claim that racism is alive and thriving in the west and especially when almost all minority groups claim discrimination in the west from the majority group. Ofcourse you take it personally because you identify with that group but it doesnt invalidate neutral comments from several institutions on this topic. I've underlined what i thought was racist and/or 'us vs them' type smallminded comment from you. One of which was very quietly but steadily putting all the blame on Saffie immigrants and offering just a token record towards the possibility of the OZ citizens displaying such crude behaviour.
its interesting that you've harped on Afrikaans comments uttered at Perth while both the visitng teams have claimed racial abuse at almost all venues. Its a classic blame-shift defensive reaction. Perhaps psychology is somethign you lack information on.
But given that its the west that has had the most severe and pervasive form of racism in history until very recently you might wanna read the article
" Exploring the psychology of white racism through naturalistic inquiry : An article from: Journal of Counseling and Development " by Michael D'Andrea and Judy Daniels to get a better insight into your own behaviour and why i've commented about your leanings in that topic.

 

[C_C]

To be fair, it seems the problem might be that you earlier implied that it didn't matter whether those concerned were visitors or migrants in the context of being deported (and many of the South African expats in Perth have likely been settled for decades, anyhow). I thought it was Eddie that overtly drew the connection between the "ship them back to their own country" mentality and 1960's racists, rather than C_C. But I could be wrong.

Actually Eddie was covert about it, i re-affirmed that observation with as much subtlety as that of a sledgehammer. And as expected, the slegehammer got more attention than the fine point needle.

 

[Slow Love™]

Actually Eddie was covert about it, i re-affirmed that observation with as much subtlety as that of a sledgehammer. And as expected, the slegehammer got more attention than the fine point needle.

Well, he overtly said it, but I get your point.

Anyhow, seeing as it's highly likely this thread will be locked (and this seems as contextual a place as any), I wanted to make a comment on your generalisations about Aussies over 50 being predominantly racist. In actual fact, people over the age of 50 very much includes baby-boomers, hippies, and many people who were quite active in civil rights and equality movements. My dad just turned 60 this year, and though he's not free of prejudice (who is?), it's grossly unfair to slap his generation as being predominantly racist, IMO. It was an era in which much progress was made, and those people got old like anybody else.

I know that most of the time generalisations aren't good, but from my own experience I'd rate a lot of people in the 50-65 age group as quite liberal and who harbor a feeling of guilt over Australia's past and the way other peoples can be treated in this country (some people who are quite young can in many ways be more problematic because sometimes empathy can take a while to establish itself). It's also worth remembering sometimes that things go backwards and forwards, and racial tolerance isn't on a purely linear path - ie, it's not a case of the older you are, the more racist you're likely to be. In all reality if you really were determined to generalise, you'd probably be better off doing so according to level of disenfrachisement or socio-economic circumstances.

 

[C_C]

Anyhow, seeing as it's highly likely this thread will be locked (and this seems as contextual a place as any), I wanted to make a comment on your generalisations about Aussies over 50 being predominantly racist. In actual fact, people over the age of 50 very much includes baby-boomers, hippies, and many people who were quite active in civil rights and equality movements. My dad just turned 60 this year, and though he's not free of prejudice (who is?), it's grossly unfair to slap his generation as being predominantly racist, IMO. It was an era in which much progress was made, and those people got old like anybody else.

Well, i tend to be honest with my viewpoints instead of couching it in political correctness.
What i intended to say is that from what i've seen, most Aussies i've come across in the 50-ish age group have quite a lot of racist tendencies and someone here reminded me of my experience of it. Perhaps it was bad terminology, perhaps it was a few bad experiences i've had provoking an instinctive reaction overriding my logical one. But i meant no offence by it and i did categorically mention that it was a musing of my personal experience and i have travelled enough to know that i've only experienced a small sample group of that demographics.

 

[Top_Cat]

Anyhow, seeing as it's highly likely this thread will be locked (and this seems as contextual a place as any), I wanted to make a comment on your generalisations about Aussies over 50 being predominantly racist. In actual fact, people over the age of 50 very much includes baby-boomers, hippies, and many people who were quite active in civil rights and equality movements. My dad just turned 60 this year, and though he's not free of prejudice (who is?), it's grossly unfair to slap his generation as being predominantly racist, IMO. It was an era in which much progress was made, and those people got old like anybody else.

I know that most of the time generalisations aren't good, but from my own experience I'd rate a lot of people in the 50-65 age group as quite liberal and who harbor a feeling of guilt over Australia's past and the way other peoples can be treated in this country (some people who are quite young can in many ways be more problematic because sometimes empathy can take a while to establish itself). It's also worth remembering sometimes that things go backwards and forwards, and racial tolerance isn't on a purely linear path - ie, it's not a case of the older you are, the more racist you're likely to be. In all reality if you really were determined to generalise, you'd probably be better off doing so according to level of disenfrachisement or socio-economic circumstances.

Indeed. There's also a significant proportion of them who are One-Nation supporters (my parents included; believe me, I'm as horrified as you are). My Mum's always been a bit of a racist (why she then married my Dad, I'll never understand.....) and my Dad is a shocker with all those who are white.

The Baby Boomers were a pretty diverse group.

 

[Slow Love™]

Indeed. There's also a significant proportion of them who are One-Nation supporters (my parents included; believe me, I'm as horrified as you are). My Mum's always been a bit of a racist (why she then married my Dad, I'll never understand.....) and my Dad is a shocker with all those who are white.

Yeah mate, my youngest brother's one of 'em too (One Nation supporter). And he calls Asians "gooks". Unfortunately, with him, a lot went horribly wrong.

 

[social]

I dont like to toot my own horn but i will tell you one thing- I've lived in over a dozen different nations in my life, spanning over two dozen cities, have been to several dozen more for the duration of a month or so, always attended international school and i can find a friend or a friend's friend in most nations on this planet. So you can take your sanctimonious garbage elsewhere.

For two, the western world had the most entrenched and systematic racist policy ever implemented by mankind. The system lasted for hundreds of years and was dismantled only 30-40 years ago. As such, it takes far time than a few decades to wipe out centuries of biassed prejudices.

For three, i would suggest you learn your english properly or re-fresh your terminologies. Semantics is when one argues about fine-tuning a definition. But you are utterly confusing between caste(which has nothing to do with race) and racism. Both are forms of discrimination but racism is almost unheard of in the subcontinent, while caste system has been around for thousands of years and just like racism in the west, was dismantled 40-50 years ago by the government. And as such, it needs more time to come through with it. In my opinion, India has been handling the caste system far better than most western nations have been handling the racism situation. The west shunns it completely, which drives it underground, only to flare time and time again in short bursts. In India, caste system is systematically being disantled(and there is a long way to go, i grant that) through base educations and information about what the caste system stood for originally( what it was originally was a form of demographics, with no stigma or prejudice attached to it). But the prime reason for that is India's diversity. When you have a history and sense of unity amongst a few hundred cultural spheres and languages to operate under one common banner, it makes the job a whole lot easier than having a scenario in the west where there is 'one big guy' culturally and several 'little guys'.

And thirdly, i dont believe i've lost any argument with you and you'd find that several folks here agree with me. You had the gall to debate with me in matters of biomechanics and what is an optical illusion and what isnt, given that i am almost qualified enough to teach this stuff in highschools and colleges, especially the optical illusion part.
Your false sense of knowledge, harboured through being an ex-player is commonly encountered amongst sportsmen. But hey, you are free to make an **** outta yourself as much as you wish in matters you dont have fundamental understanding of. I would dare ya to show the debate about chucking between me and you to any biomechanical expert and see who he agrees with. Hell, i will offer you 100 bucks if you can get one to officially say you were right on that and i was wrong. But whats worse, you already have a pre-set agenda that is NOT supported by facts. Merely fiction. You had the gall to argue about me on why the margin of error is set at 15 degrees when most bowlers are found to be around 14 degrees max(including Murali), without knowing an iota about tolerance levels and margins of error and their implications on the overall barometer.

In short, you, who has zero clue about science, decieded to rubbish my opinions about science when i've been involved with post-highschool science for seven years. In short, eff off. I dont intend to lecture you on cricketing technique so dont presume to lecture me on scientific accuracy and its implications. Particularly not when other scientific personnel agree with me on this on this board and yer left on your own with a false sense of knowledge in matters you have very little clue about.

As per the race card- like i said, your philosophy is very akin to the official policy of western governments- deny its existance like a little kid yelling 'go away monster' and hoping its gone. Nevermind countless UN reports,human rights reports, etc. who openly claim that racism is alive and thriving in the west and especially when almost all minority groups claim discrimination in the west from the majority group. Ofcourse you take it personally because you identify with that group but it doesnt invalidate neutral comments from several institutions on this topic. I've underlined what i thought was racist and/or 'us vs them' type smallminded comment from you. One of which was very quietly but steadily putting all the blame on Saffie immigrants and offering just a token record towards the possibility of the OZ citizens displaying such crude behaviour.
its interesting that you've harped on Afrikaans comments uttered at Perth while both the visitng teams have claimed racial abuse at almost all venues. Its a classic blame-shift defensive reaction. Perhaps psychology is somethign you lack information on.
But given that its the west that has had the most severe and pervasive form of racism in history until very recently you might wanna read the article
" Exploring the psychology of white racism through naturalistic inquiry : An article from: Journal of Counseling and Development " by Michael D'Andrea and Judy Daniels to get a better insight into your own behaviour and why i've commented about your leanings in that topic.

1. "I dont like to toot my own horn" - Give me a break! Several people on this board only need to open one eye to see more letters on their wall than you have but dont feel the bring it to everyone's attention.

2. So you've lived in a few places - shame you didnt learn anything from the experience.

3. The caste system has been in place for 000's of years, as you say. But to say that it has been dismantled, or is in the process of being dimantled, is utter nonsense.

Sell your theory to its' victims and I might have a semblance of sympathy for your views.

4. Lose an argument? Dont make me laugh.

Socialism - dead for decades

Australia - you've never been here

Murali - guilty as charged

Current testing procedures- under review

Sorry, it's 3-0 with 1 yet to be decided.

5. Qualifications - that's 4-0

 

[honestbharani]

1. "I dont like to toot my own horn" - Give me a break! Several people on this board only need to open one eye to see more letters on their wall than you have but dont feel the bring it to everyone's attention.

2. So you've lived in a few places - shame you didnt learn anything from the experience.

3. The caste system has been in place for 000's of years, as you say. But to say that it has been dismantled, or is in the process of being dimantled, is utter nonsense.

Sell your theory to its' victims and I might have a semblance of sympathy for your views.

4. Lose an argument? Dont make me laugh.

Socialism - dead for decades

Australia - you've never been here

Murali - guilty as charged

Current testing procedures- under review

Sorry, it's 3-0 with 1 yet to be decided.

5. Qualifications - that's 4-0

congrats. Where is your trophy?


Seriously, you and CC need to chill out. It is obvious that CC knows far more than you in relation to certain fields and it is also obvious that you know far more than him in certain fields. But instead of learning from each other, you guys have been at each others' throats for a good couple of months now and yet, you guys are still at exactly where you began. Arguments are fruitless, discussions are fruitful.


BTW, my company's motto is "learning and sharing".

 

[C_C]

1. "I dont like to toot my own horn" - Give me a break! Several people on this board only need to open one eye to see more letters on their wall than you have but dont feel the bring it to everyone's attention.

2. So you've lived in a few places - shame you didnt learn anything from the experience.

3. The caste system has been in place for 000's of years, as you say. But to say that it has been dismantled, or is in the process of being dimantled, is utter nonsense.

Sell your theory to its' victims and I might have a semblance of sympathy for your views.

4. Lose an argument? Dont make me laugh.

Socialism - dead for decades

Australia - you've never been here

Murali - guilty as charged

Current testing procedures- under review

Sorry, it's 3-0 with 1 yet to be decided.

5. Qualifications - that's 4-0

You must be one sorry insecure excuse for a human being to consider a debate to be a 'win or loss' stuff but just to address your points :

1. Perhaps- there are many people very well versed in their particular fields of expertise and i do not challenge that. Neither do i claim to know more in their respective fields than they do. But i do believe that my area of expertise happens to be science, physics and engineering applications in general. I would like to tell you that my field of expertise is engineering physics, with electronics speciality. Part of my projects have been to work with biomechanical instruments, especially in the design of robotic hands and like. I would imagine that i have learnt something from that experience and all my grades didnt just drop outta thin air. And in my opinion, you know very very little about this subject matter, yet you keep making an utter fool of yourself.

2. Matter of perspective really. From where i stand, its sad that you learnt very little from your experiences. For you are really ignorant not only of people's cultures, but more importantly, their cultural history and effects of history on their culture.

3. The caste system is officially illegal in India, just like racism is officially illegal in Australia or in the west. Both governments continue to make efforts to improve the situation and there has been some progress made in the field. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the caste system abolishment hasnt made any progress- reports of equal consequences and validity as reports of 'continued efforts to irradicate racism' in the west. You have absolutely no basis or quantification to judge either process.

4. You seem to know equally little about socio-economic theories. Perhaps your knowledge of 'socialism' stems from ignorance of economic policies and principles. For socialism is, technically speaking, an economic system as well as political one. You'd also be enlightened, i am sure, to find that socialistic economies and various forms of it are still in place in several developing nations as well as developed ones. The economies of Canada, Norway, Sweden, etc. show distinct socialistic principles and i can refer you a few volumes of economic work extrapolating and justifying this view. And these texts are well accepted in the economic establishment(s). Perhaps you would be able to enlighten me on what exactly the parameters of a socialist or 'socialist-leaning' economy is and what are its pros and cons. Perhaps you could then compare it with the parameters and pros/cons of capitalism, communism, lenninsm, marxism, globalism, etc. I await your knowledge in this field(or the utter lack of it).

5. While i've never been to Australia, i've interacted in person with several Australians and i've developed a fair idea of the nation's history through my research. I dont intend to talk about Aussie culture but I am pretty well versed in Aussie history and its historical impacts.

6. The point you miss, is that if Murali is guilty of chucking by the old rule, so is every single bowler and if one guilty party is charged out of hundreds proven to be guilty, it is nothing more than unfair victimisation. And for your information(or the lack of it), Murali has been utterly and comprehensively cleared very recently, with his flexion levels for the doosra and off-break falling very much within the limit. Please check cricinfo for that.
And do not talk about the validity of various testing methods - i believe that i've already made my case for it and several of the learned members agree with me on this. You have absolutely no idea of tolerance limits, comparative analysis of different studies, etc. so maybe you should shut up in areas you are lacking in information and try to learn something instead of holding a faulty argument simply out of arrogance.

 

[Top_Cat]

Guys, this running feud is officially worse than the Richard vs TEC post-wars. It's getting boring and you're both polluting various threads with the same old stuff. Can we PLEASE end it right now? I don't care a jot about each other's right of reply but I don't want to close the thread either. You've both said your piece multiple times so enough, please.