Quick World ATG XI draft- No Bradman

[zaremba]

One of these days we will have to come up with a definitive classification for Barnes.

There's a lot of material in this thread, starting from about the second page in.

What I take from this is that he essentially bowled brisk legspin, but he seems to have had variations and may at one point in his career have bowled pretty quickly.

Early accounts of bowling are hugely unreliable though, partly because the science was poorly understood, partly because the terminology was not consistently used and differs from the terminology we use today, and partly because there is inevitably a large slice of misty-eyed reminiscence in a lot of these accounts.

Whether he ever bowled what we'd today describe as "swing" bowling I rather doubt. The fact that SF got the ball to duck in from the off in flight and to cut away from the leg off the pitch strongly suggests that this was swerve rather than swing - think Shane Warne rather than Jimmy Anderson. What we'll never know is whether his pace was closer to the former or the latter.

 

[Red]

Round 9

Himannv- Victor Trumper

Jager- Dennis Lindsay

smalishah84- Doug Walters

zaremba- Shiv Chanderpaul

Monk- Bill Ponsford

rvd619323- Frank Woolley

kingkallis- Courtney Walsh

watson- John Waite

kyear- Ian Bishop


Round 10

kyear- AB DeVilliers

watson- Clive Lloyd

kingkallis

rvd619323

Monk

zaremba

smalishah84

Jager

Himannv

 

[Red]

its rvd's turn. Right?

Nope, you're up mate.

 

[watson]

There's a lot of material in this thread, starting from about the second page in.

What I take from this is that he essentially bowled brisk legspin, but he seems to have had variations and may at one point in his career have bowled pretty quickly.

Early accounts of bowling are hugely unreliable though, partly because the science was poorly understood, partly because the terminology was not consistently used and differs from the terminology we use today, and partly because there is inevitably a large slice of misty-eyed reminiscence in a lot of these accounts.

Whether he ever bowled what we'd today describe as "swing" bowling I rather doubt. The fact that SF got the ball to duck in from the off in flight and to cut away from the leg off the pitch strongly suggests that this was swerve rather than swing - think Shane Warne rather than Jimmy Anderson. What we'll never know is whether his pace was closer to the former or the latter.

Bill O'Reilly was not a classic 'over the wrist' spin bowler like Shane Warne or Richie Benaud. Rather he spun the ball as though he was 'unscrewing a light bulb' as you can see from this photograph;

Australia bowler, Bill O'Reilly, demonstrates his famous grip, ca. 1932 / by Sam Hood | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I think that SF Barnes would have employed a similar technique to spin the ball when bowling his leg-break. This would have enabled him to spin the ball and bowl relatively fast at the same time like Bill O'Reilly. Hence the comparison made between the two great bowlers by Bradman.

I have always imagined that Barnes bowled at Shahid Afridi's pace when bowling a leg break or off-break, and Terry Alderman's pace when bowling leg-cutters, off-cutters, or swing; and with no discernable change in action or effort.

Incidently, this moderate change of pace (and only moderate at most) is what made Andy Roberts and John Snow such great bowlers as well. As Ian Chappell desribed it, they would "change-up" without the batsman detecting any difference from their stock delivery. Hence, they would beat the batsman for pace by using 'surprise' (if you understand what I mean).

Lastly, Barnes could not bowl at James Anderson's pace and have the keeper stand at the stumps ready for stumping opportunities. The keeper might be able to take someone bowling at Anderson's pace if the pitch was dead flat. But on uncovered early 20th century pitches the keeper would probably be knocked dead by late afternoon.

Did the keeper stand at the stumps to SF Barnes' bowling?

 

[Red]

I have always imagined that Barnes bowled at Shahid Afridi's pace when bowling a leg break or off-break, and Terry Alderman's pace when bowling leg-cutters, off-cutters, or swing; and with no discernable change in action or effort.

Good summary I reckon.

It seems, from what Bradman said, that O'Reilly and Barnes were very similar. When you see footage of O'Reilly bowling, it is a fair bit quicker than the pace Warne bowled. It had a real "hustle" to it.

 

[zaremba]

I wasn't trying to suggest that Barnes is comparable to Warne in method by the way - I was simply saying that his method of moving the ball in the air was through spin rather than through true swing.

 

[zaremba]

As for changes pace, these were clearly of paramount importance to many bowlers from the earlier eras. I recall reading that about Spofforth and Lohmann in particular.

 

[kyear2]

So what I can take from this is that he bowled qucik spin like O'Reilly, just a bit quicker. Though to be honest, what I have seen of O'Reilly he bordered on medium.

 

[watson]

Here is a breakdown of dismissals by SF Barnes;

HowSTAT! Player Bowling Analysis

There are 4 stumpings, all against South Africa (make of that lowish figure what you will).

104 batsman were caught, 68 were bowled, 12 were LBW and AW Nourse hit his wicket.

The other interesting fact was that Victor Trumper was his favourite victim (13 times) for some reason.

 

[watson]

Interested to see who KK selects to partner Trueman, Walsh and Botham

 

[Red]

kingkallis?

 

[kingkallis]

Hashim Amla to bat @ No.3. I did check some of the guys like Stan McCabe but come on, 7-8 tests @ No.3 is not enough. Right? Amla has 50+ average @ No.3 ( 54 games ) and the guy looks solid to be next great No.3.

CricZo XI

1. Sunil Gavaskar /
2. Gordon Greenidge /
3. Hashim Amla /
4. Denis Compton /
5. Allan Border ( c ) /
6. Adam Gilchrist ( + ) /
7. Ian Botham o /
8. Shane Warne o
9.
10. Fred Trueman o
11. Courtney Walsh o

 

[Dan]

DRJ

1. Sir Jack Hobbs
2. Barry Richards
3. Charlie Macartney
4. Javed Miandad
5. Douglas Jardine
6. Frank Woolley
7. Clive Rice
8. -
9. Ray Lindwall
10. Harold Larwood
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

 

[watson]

8 innings, 3 hundreds, and an average of 69.4 at first drop is not a bad indicator of talent. Neither is an overall average of 48.2

 

[kingkallis]

8 innings, 3 hundreds, and an average of 69.4 at first drop is not a bad indicator of talent. Neither is an overall average of 48.2

I agree with you but 4500 runs @ 52+ from 54 test is simply awesome by the young man!

I might have lost a few votes by NOT picking Stan but hell, couldnt convince myself.

 

[watson]

I agree with you but 4500 runs @ 52+ from 54 test is simply awesome by the young man!

I might have lost a few votes by NOT picking Stan but hell, couldnt convince myself.

Fair enough. Can't argue with those numbers.

 

[Red]

Bill Lawry

Keen for someone to blunt the brutal attacks we're going to face, and apart from Gavaskar or Hobbs, there is no better man. Bill will make sure the middle order face a fairly old ball, as he did against Trueman and Statham and Hall and Griffiths. Magnificent opening batsman, as as a leftie, he'll combine perfectly with Ponsford.

1. Bill Lawry /
2. Bill Ponsford /
3. Kumar Sangakkara /
4. Wally Hammond / o
5. Neil Harvey /
6.
7. Les Ames wk /
8. Kapil Dev o /
9. Richard Hadlee o /
10. Allan Donald o
11. Bill O'Reilly o

 

[Red]

Round 9

Himannv- Victor Trumper

Jager- Dennis Lindsay

smalishah84- Doug Walters

zaremba- Shiv Chanderpaul

Monk- Bill Ponsford

rvd619323- Frank Woolley

kingkallis- Courtney Walsh

watson- John Waite

kyear- Ian Bishop


Round 10

kyear- AB DeVilliers

watson- Clive Lloyd

kingkallis- Hashim Amla

rvd619323- Douglas Jardine

Monk- Bill Lawry

zaremba

smalishah84

Jager

Himannv

 

[Red]

DRJ

Why? Fan?

 

[Dan]

Why? Fan?

Wanted a strong captain, and the Larwood-Jardine connection was just too good to pass up on. Plus he averaged 49 with the bat (over 60 when batting at 5), and I think his style of play would complement the top 4, and link the top order to the middle.

Could have gone with Paynter, but opted for him instead. Means I don't have to shoulder the captaincy on Lindwall - he can just bowl.