Playing Selector: Top five test all rounders ever

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Baggers as always bringing a good thread to the table here.



Then....



The idea needs to be to see which of the younger CW members can actually count.

The idea was to list the actual top 5 and the top 5 from the options given.

 

[Coronis]

As a batsman, yes most definitely; as a bowler, no. Kapil carried Indian bowling on his back for the majority of the '80s. Botham had better peaks (obviously, duh); but outside of that he struggled with consistency.

lol. Just because your teammates are worse doesn’t make you more impactful. Kapil had no doubt worse bowling support and yet still wasn’t taking as many big hauls outside their peaks - he was simply not as good a bowler as Botham and not as impactful.

Botham of course had a far sharper decline his last 5 years were pathetic - Kapil no doubt wins out on longevity. Botham was still more impactful taking his overall career into account.

 

[Nintendo]

wtf more did Hadlee need to do

He averaged 27 with the bat at test level? He's one of the best bowlers ever, but realistically at test level he was an above average #8/a below average #7.

 

[capt_Luffy]

lol. Just because your teammates are worse doesn’t make you more impactful. Kapil had no doubt worse bowling support and yet still wasn’t taking as many big hauls outside their peaks - he was simply not as good a bowler as Botham and not as impactful.

Botham of course had a far sharper decline his last 5 years were pathetic - Kapil no doubt wins out on longevity. Botham was still more impactful taking his overall career into account.

You love your hot takes don't you.... Kapil had impacted India's bowling much more than Botham did of England's; I can't see how this statement could be wrong. Ofcourse if you are bowling with low quality support and a weak fielding side, alongside the fact that one was a medium pacer from India, literally the worst place to be a medium pacer; and the another from England. Botham is a better batsman and a better player, but Kapil is a better bowler if for nothing then for all that heavy liftings and long spells (he literally had to reduce his pace, at first he was a proper pacer); and the gap between them is lesser than most people is making it out to be.

 

[honestbharani]

lol. Just because your teammates are worse doesn’t make you more impactful. Kapil had no doubt worse bowling support and yet still wasn’t taking as many big hauls outside their peaks - he was simply not as good a bowler as Botham and not as impactful.

Botham of course had a far sharper decline his last 5 years were pathetic - Kapil no doubt wins out on longevity. Botham was still more impactful taking his overall career into account.

Not like cricket is played over two ends and bowling especially depends on how the other person bowls at the other end or anything...

 

[Coronis]

You love your hot takes don't you.... Kapil had impacted India's bowling much more than Botham did of England's; I can't see how this statement could be wrong. Ofcourse if you are bowling with low quality support and a weak fielding side, alongside the fact that one was a medium pacer from India, literally the worst place to be a medium pacer; and the another from England. Botham is a better batsman and a better player, but Kapil is a better bowler if for nothing then for all that heavy liftings and long spells (he literally had to reduce his pace, at first he was a proper pacer); and the gap between them is lesser than most people is making it out to be.

Botham actually took a higher percentage of England’s wickets than Kapil did of India’s…. at a better average and strike rate….

 

[capt_Luffy]

Botham actually took a higher percentage of England’s wickets than Kapil did of India’s…. at a better average and strike rate….

Kapil bowled much longer spells for India than Botham did; as well as the fact that Indian pitches is much more suited for spinners than medium pacers.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

He averaged 27 with the bat at test level? He's one of the best bowlers ever, but realistically at test level he was an above average #8/a below average #7.

27 with the bat (especially in NZ in the '80s, the batting average in his matches is 30) competes favorably to Kallis' 33 with the ball

 

[Coronis]

Kapil bowled much longer spells for India than Botham did; as well as the fact that Indian pitches is much more suited for spinners than medium pacers.

Eh they both bowled similar amounts per match - if you say so. Botham also performed just as well as Kapil did in India - however Kapil sucked in England.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Eh they both bowled similar amounts per match - if you say so. Botham also performed just as well as Kapil did in India - however Kapil sucked in England.

www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-india-1983-84-61939/india-vs-west-indies-3rd-test-63352/live-cricket-score

See this scorecard to be more clarified of my point.

Also, Kapil actually has better average than Botham, both home and away; against Australia and significantly better against West Indies (25 to 35)

 

[shortpitched713]

wtf more did Hadlee need to do

In a real sense, absolutely nothing.

In the "idealized all-rounder" sense, bat better.

 

[Coronis]

www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-india-1983-84-61939/india-vs-west-indies-3rd-test-63352/live-cricket-score

See this scorecard to be more clarified of my point.

Also, Kapil actually has better average than Botham, both home and away; against Australia and significantly better against West Indies (25 to 35)

Oh cool yes we’re cherrypicking countries.

It may surprise you to know that throughout Kapil’s career it was actually India and Pakistan who had the strongest overall batting.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Why so little love for Stokes and Flintoff?

Dale Steyn reckons Stokes is a better all rounder than Kallis and Flintoff simultaneously hit heights with his batting and bowling in the 2005 ashes that most allrounders on that list never got close too.

Just because they are not in the top 5.
Stokes would be in the top dozen perhaps and Flintoff a bit lower. Still very good players.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Oh cool yes we’re cherrypicking countries.

It may surprise you to know that throughout Kapil’s career it was actually India and Pakistan who had the strongest overall batting.

It was the Windies.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Oh cool yes we’re cherrypicking countries.

It may surprise you to know that throughout Kapil’s career it was actually India and Pakistan who had the strongest overall batting.

Nah man; Windies and Aussies had better batting than both India and definitely Pakistan. If saying runs against Sri Lanka in the '70s or New Zealand in the '60 are less valuable is a valid take; then performing better against opponents like '80s Windies than NZ is definitely also valid.

 

[Migara]

Okay, here's my attempt to rank all of them:
1. Garry Sobers
2. Imran Khan
3. Keith Miller
4. Jacques Kallis
5. Ian Botham
6. Wilfred Rhodes
7. Kapil Dev
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Shaun Pollock
10. Aubrey Faulkner
11. Ravindra Jadeja
12. Shakib Al Hasan
13. Frank Woolley
14. Monty Noble
15. Ben Stokes
16. Vinoo Mankad
17. Tony Greig
18. Chris Cairns
19. Wally Hammond
20. Ravichandran Ashwin
21. Richie Benaud
22. Jack Gregory
23. Warwick Armstrong
24. Mushtaq Mohammad
25. Brian McMillan
26. Maurice Tate
27. Andrew Flintoff
28. Ray Lindwall
29. Trevor Bailey
30. Wasim Akram
31. Heath Streak
32. Sanath Jayasuriya
33. Chris Woakes

Some other players I would rank above certain others:
Learie Constantine, Jason Holder, Collie Smith, Gerry Gomez, Allan Davidson, Charlie MaCartney, Trevor Goddard (the most notable exception), Mike Procter (the best cricketer to be left out), Eddie Barlow, Jimmy Sinclair, W G Grace (the player about whom you could create the strongest argument to be in Top 5), Billy Barnes, Allan Steel, George Hirst, Ted Dexter, Stanley Jackson, Gubby Allen, Ray Illingworth, Intikhab Alam, John Richard Reid, Daniel Vettori (most notable modern exception), Bruce Taylor, Colin de Grandhomme, Chamunda Vaas, Sikander Raza.

Hadlee with the bal;l alone is a greater player than Botham. Ditto Pollock.

Imran
Sobers
Hadlee
Miller
Faulkner
Kallis
Pollock
Hasan
Jadeja
Botham

would be my top 10.

And FTR, Streak 22.4 with bat 28.1 with ball. Vaas 24.3 with bat and 29.6 with ball, and much longer career.

 

[bagapath]

It is amazing that the record for most runs, most wickets and most catches were held by some of these all rounders at various times in history

 

[Coronis]

It was the Windies.

Yeah nah. India and Pakistan were averaging 35-36 during Kapil’s career, then you had WI/Aus at about 33.

Of course bowling was where there was the big difference… Windies averaging like 26 vs 30 for the nearest competitor (Pakistan)

 

[thierry henry]

I'm both the biggest Vettori hater in CW history and the biggest advocate for Vettori the all-rounder. No way he should be totally left off even the long list here.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah nah. India and Pakistan were averaging 35-36 during Kapil’s career, then you had WI/Aus at about 33.

Of course bowling was where there was the big difference… Windies averaging like 26 vs 30 for the nearest competitor (Pakistan)

Is this a bit?