Mankad also is a pure all rounder.
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Playing Selector: Top five test all rounders ever
- Thread starter bagapath
- Start date
My final order for post 1940 players:-
Sobers
Imran
Kallis
Miller
Botham
Kapil
Stokes
Greig
Cairns
Shakib
Jadeja
Flintoff
Mankad
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
No? I’m basically saying I think *bowling* stats against that Windies team are overrated.
Kapil wishes.
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OverratedSanity
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You sincerely think India and Pakistan were batting lineups than the west indies?
trundler
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I think they were truly batting lineups yes
Patience and Accuracy+Gut
State Vice-Captain
Garry Sobers
Keith Miller
Imran Khan
Jacques Kallis
Ian Botham
Keith Miller
Imran Khan
Jacques Kallis
Ian Botham
to carry the bowling on his own and be the leading wicket taker of all-time when retired?
capt_Luffy
International Vice-Captain
They were truly batting line-ups (atleast India was, Pakistan had Imran, Qadir, Qasim and later Wasim), but that doesn't mean they were better than the Windies or the Aussies....
trundler
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This reminds me when growing up watching "the big 4" in the 80's that generally 1 wicket = 20 runs was thrown around a lot (fivefor = century).
If we use that logic today we'd have: Rating = runs per match + (wkts per match x 20)
1. Sobers - 136 9 (86.4 + 50.5)
2. Hadlee - 136.5 (36.3 + 100.2)
3. Faulkner - 135.8 (70.2 + 65.6)
4. Botham - 126.1 (51.0 + 75.1)
5. Imran - 125.6 (43.3 + 82.3)
6. Cairns - 123.8 (53.5 + 70.3)
7. Goddard - 121.4 (61.4 + 60.0)
8. Miller - 115.6 (53.8 + 61.8)
9. Kallis - 115.3 (80.1 + 35.2)
10. Davidson - 114.7 (30.2 + 84.5)
11. Benaud - 113.6 (34.9 + 78.7)
12. Pollock - 113.0 (35.0 + 78.0)
13. Greig - 110.7 (62.1 + 48.6)
14. Dev - 106.4 (40.1 + 66.3)
15. Flintoff - 105.9 (48.7 + 57.2)
If we use that logic today we'd have: Rating = runs per match + (wkts per match x 20)
1. Sobers - 136 9 (86.4 + 50.5)
2. Hadlee - 136.5 (36.3 + 100.2)
3. Faulkner - 135.8 (70.2 + 65.6)
4. Botham - 126.1 (51.0 + 75.1)
5. Imran - 125.6 (43.3 + 82.3)
6. Cairns - 123.8 (53.5 + 70.3)
7. Goddard - 121.4 (61.4 + 60.0)
8. Miller - 115.6 (53.8 + 61.8)
9. Kallis - 115.3 (80.1 + 35.2)
10. Davidson - 114.7 (30.2 + 84.5)
11. Benaud - 113.6 (34.9 + 78.7)
12. Pollock - 113.0 (35.0 + 78.0)
13. Greig - 110.7 (62.1 + 48.6)
14. Dev - 106.4 (40.1 + 66.3)
15. Flintoff - 105.9 (48.7 + 57.2)
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OverratedSanity
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Actual no. 1 is Shakib - 138.09 (67.48+70.6)
I purposely did not include current players as not fair for retired players who had long careers with significant decline later years
As an example Shakib currently has 66 Tests with 138.1 but Botham after 66 Tests was a 143.1 (57.2 + 86.1) and would be clear all-time #1 at same point in career
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Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
I think they were at the very least on par with them, which is why I think over that period (late 70’s-early 90’s) bowling stats against the West Indies is overrated.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
ataraxia
International Coach
Murali (9.5 + 120.3 = 129.8) > Botham as all-rounders confirmed. Barnes meanwhile nears 150 and Rashid Khan breaches it (sorry, sorry, I had to...)
Goddard beats Miller ftr
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
Bradman ends up at (134.5 + 0.8) 135.3. Overrated hack.
Well put in a minimum allrounder criteria of 30 runs and 1.5 wickets per match
Goddard now added
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bagapath
International Captain
You can now choose the next five all rounders in this thread:
Playing Selector: All time great allrounders No.6 - No.10
http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/threads/playing-selector-top-five-test-all-rounders-ever.91282/ The top five allrounders chosen in the above thread are, unsurprisingly.. 1. Sobers 2. Imran 3. Miller 4. Kallis 5. Botham Now, to complete the top 10 greatest all rounders ever, let us vote for the...
www.cricketweb.net
shortpitched713
International Captain
Here's the elephant in the room, about why it's so ****ing hard to rate all-rounders.
The truth apparent to anyone who watches Test cricket is that (excluding Bradman for obvious reasons), the very best bowlers just blow out the very best batsmen in the world for value. McGrath vs Lara, absolutely laughable comparison. For the top 6-7 bowlers of all-time, they could make an impact towards match result in their team's favor with a consistency that batsmen could never dream of. Even something like the top 15-20 bowlers all time, are going to be more valuable, in my estimation than the very best batsmen, although a slight step down from the top tier. After that some bowlers' value might be more comparable to batsmen, but in these tier it's leaps and bounds higher.
Batsmen are inherently inconsistent, and at the very top they have a very granular difference from one to the next, in their ability to effect matches, unlike bowlers whose top end impact seems to be almost limitless.
So you combine those two attributes, and it's hard to really rank "value" of an allrounder as compared to "balance" of an all-rounder. No one other than Imran could possibly compete with Hadlee on "value", but he doesn't have the "balance" between the two attributes which we see in all-rounders.
Looking just at batting and bowling, that's why I had Sobers "valued" as the 7th best all-rounder in my initial list. But that isn't how we really rank all-rounders. The real way is something like a "rating" of 1-100 for batting, 1-100 for bowling, then add them up. By that listing I'd then have Imran and Miller at the top, followed by Sobers, at a more reasonable 3rd (he's in the same tier as the above if you factor in fielding too).