Playing Selector: Top five test all rounders ever

[reyrey]

Why so little love for Stokes and Flintoff?

Dale Steyn reckons Stokes is a better all rounder than Kallis and Flintoff simultaneously hit heights with his batting and bowling in the 2005 ashes that most allrounders on that list never got close too.

 

[number11]

Sobers, Imran and Miller are in their own league. Beefy next up and then it's wide open. I gave a nod to Shakib just so that team gets a vote once on this forum.

 

[ataraxia]

For example, Why is Miller rated above Botham? Do we like Miller's superior batting average ignoring the low WPM?

Because Miller's a better batter and a better bowler.

Or why is Sobers ranked way above Kallis when their numbers are alike? Is it to do with their playing styles - aggressive versus dour? Or is it assumed that Sobers is far a better bowler?

Because Sobers' a better batter and a better bowler.

 

[Line and Length]

A player definitely warranting all-rounder status is Doug Walters. A batting average of 48.8 and a bowling average of 29.1 speaks volumes. Unfortunately, playing in a side with 3 quicks such as Lillee, Thomson and Max Walker meant he wasn't called on too often. His WPM supports this but he was a proven partnership breaker.

 

[Coronis]

A player definitely warranting all-rounder status is Doug Walters. A batting average of 48.8 and a bowling average of 29.1 speaks volumes. Unfortunately, playing in a side with 3 quicks such as Lillee, Thomson and Max Walker meant he wasn't called on too often. His WPM supports this but he was a proven partnership breaker.

A partnership breaker who occasionally turns over his arm isn’t an allrounder in my books.

 

[rtramdas]

Another thing that has always came across as awkward is the big difference in ratings between Botham and Kapil when considering the fact that their numbers have been so close to each other. Here itself Botham has 20 votes where as Kapil has none( 1 of course of mine). Have come across several such instances, not only here.

Botham 161 inns 33.54 avg: , 60.71str: , avg: batting position 6.02
Kapil 184 inns 31.05 avg: , 81-82.5 range str: , avg: batting position 7.02

Botham 21815 balls 28.4 avg:
Kapil 27740 balls 29.65 avg:

Nothing much to separate. Again 'against Windies in Windies(GOAT team)' Kapil towered above his fellow all rounders where as Botham fell apart in both batting and bowling . Considering the other relatively massive adverse contexts in which Kapil achieved his numbers, I for one has no doubt w.r.t my stances.

 

[bagapath]

Because Miller's a better batter and a better bowler.

How is Miller a better bowler?

 

[bagapath]

I for one has no doubt w.r.t my stances.

good you don't have any doubts

 

[ataraxia]

How is Miller a better bowler?

He averages 23. WPM is relevant but the difference between Miller and Botham's bowling average is the same as someone who averages 50 with bat and someone who averages 62.

 

[bagapath]

He averages 23. WPM is relevant but the difference between Miller and Botham's bowling average is the same as someone who averages 50 with bat and someone who averages 62.

Not a good enough argument for me.
Botham was a force of nature bowling out sides regularly almost on his own. 27 five-fers was not a joke.
WPM is very relevant. As leading strike bowlers Botham was way superior to Miller.

 

[ataraxia]

I guess you'd also consider someone who averages 50 with more centuries better than someone who averages 62 with less?

 

[bagapath]

Sure... Among left handed middle order batsmen Lara is a better bat than G Pollock in my book

I am placing S Pollock in the bowling allrounders list despite his batting avg being 32+ for very similar reasons
WPM/ no of 50+ scores/ no of 5+ wicket hauls are as relevant as the averages

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Sobers
Procter
Hadlee
Imran
Kapil
Botham

 

[Burgey]

Baggers as always bringing a good thread to the table here.

The idea is to see who the younger CW members consider as the top five test allrounders of all time.

Then....

Sobers
Procter
Hadlee
Imran
Kapil
Botham

The idea needs to be to see which of the younger CW members can actually count.

 

[Bolo.]

wtf more did Hadlee need to do

Be an AR IMO.

I think I possibly rate him higher than anyone else on CW, but I didn't vote for him as he misses my AR threshold.

 

[Coronis]

Another thing that has always came across as awkward is the big difference in ratings between Botham and Kapil when considering the fact that their numbers have been so close to each other. Here itself Botham has 20 votes where as Kapil has none( 1 of course of mine). Have come across several such instances, not only here.

Botham 161 inns 33.54 avg: , 60.71str: , avg: batting position 6.02
Kapil 184 inns 31.05 avg: , 81-82.5 range str: , avg: batting position 7.02

Botham 21815 balls 28.4 avg:
Kapil 27740 balls 29.65 avg:

Nothing much to separate. Again 'against Windies in Windies(GOAT team)' Kapil towered above his fellow all rounders where as Botham fell apart in both batting and bowling . Considering the other relatively massive adverse contexts in which Kapil achieved his numbers, I for one has no doubt w.r.t my stances.

Or you could look at it a different way rather than simple averages….

Botham 161 innings 5200 runs 14 tons 22 fifties
Kapil 184 innings 5248 runs 8 tons 27 fifties

Botham 21518 balls 383 wickets 27 5’fers, 4 10’fers
Kapil 27740 balls 434 wickets 23 5’fers 2 10’fers

 

[Coronis]

Not a good enough argument for me.
Botham was a force of nature bowling out sides regularly almost on his own. 27 five-fers was not a joke.
WPM is very relevant. As leading strike bowlers Botham was way superior to Miller.

Tad harder to bowl out sides on your own when you’ve got ATG bowlers in your team who are better than you.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Or you could look at it a different way rather than simple averages….

Botham 161 innings 5200 runs 14 tons 22 fifties
Kapil 184 innings 5248 runs 8 tons 27 fifties

Botham 21518 balls 383 wickets 27 5’fers, 4 10’fers
Kapil 27740 balls 434 wickets 23 5’fers 2 10’fers

Honestly, it just shows that Botham had more longer innings.....

 

[Coronis]

Honestly, it just shows that Botham had more longer innings.....

Actually it shows he was clearly more impactful as both a batsman and a bowler than Kapil.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Actually it shows he was clearly more impactful as both a batsman and a bowler than Kapil.

As a batsman, yes most definitely; as a bowler, no. Kapil carried Indian bowling on his back for the majority of the '80s. Botham had better peaks (obviously, duh); but outside of that he struggled with consistency.