Who said he was an ATG batsman? I said he had equal batting and bowling skills
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
Playing Selector: Top five test all rounders ever
- Thread starter bagapath
- Start date
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
He’s a near ATG bowler… he’s nowhere near that level as a batsman.
Silver Silva
International Debutant
Ive gone with Wilfred Rhodes , Imran Khan , Garry Sobers , Ian Botham and Jacques Kallis ..
Rhodes for longevity from the amateur era
Sobers for sheer brilliance and unique
flexibility
Botham the greatest early bloomer all rounder
Imran Khan the greatest late bloomer all rounder
Jacques Kallis for reliability over a long period of time.
Rhodes for longevity from the amateur era
Sobers for sheer brilliance and unique
flexibility
Botham the greatest early bloomer all rounder
Imran Khan the greatest late bloomer all rounder
Jacques Kallis for reliability over a long period of time.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Shakib is a pure allrounder
Kapil seems way under rated in general . A batsman with around 82 batting str: when even Viv Richards was only striking at 70, with several back to the wall innings, with a towering series in WI(GOAT team) ..... a bowler who averaged 29.65 against all odds like longevity , weak support bowling unit , heavy work load etc etc ... A first class all round fielder & a safe catcher ....
To put it in context , to score 5248 runs @ 82 str when King Viv scored 8540 runs @70 is some achievement .
Burgey
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Yeah I genuinely think if Kapil averaged either a smidge higher with the bat or a touch lower with the ball he'd be regarded higher in ATG comparisons, even a factor of a couple of runs either way. Genuinely a brilliant cricketer who could do it all. Agree he gets overlooked in ATG discussions more than he should. The bloke was a just genuinely great player, especially bowling seam up for India in that era.
Burgey
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Tim Southee has scored 2,000 @ 83
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
I think if he did better outside of India he’d be regarded higher.
bagapath
International Captain
At the moment, with 36 votes in. the clear leaders are:
Sobers - 34
Imran - 30
Miller - 27
Kallis - 22
Botham - 18
Not surprised. In fact I voted for the same five. But I am trying to understand whether this is a reflection of how we value their individual talents or is it also mixed with what type of all rounder - batting/ bowling - we believe they are?
For example, Why is Miller rated above Botham? Do we like Miller's superior batting average ignoring the low WPM?
Or why is Sobers ranked way above Kallis when their numbers are alike? Is it to do with their playing styles - aggressive versus dour? Or is it assumed that Sobers is far a better bowler?
Sobers - 34
Imran - 30
Miller - 27
Kallis - 22
Botham - 18
Not surprised. In fact I voted for the same five. But I am trying to understand whether this is a reflection of how we value their individual talents or is it also mixed with what type of all rounder - batting/ bowling - we believe they are?
For example, Why is Miller rated above Botham? Do we like Miller's superior batting average ignoring the low WPM?
Or why is Sobers ranked way above Kallis when their numbers are alike? Is it to do with their playing styles - aggressive versus dour? Or is it assumed that Sobers is far a better bowler?
Last edited:
the longer you play, the lower your average gets in general , be it in batting or bowling. Rare exceptions might be there though. Sachin, Ponting, Viv, Kohli, S . Smith and a lot of others have gone thru this. It should be noted that Kapil averaged 28.87 in bowling after first 100 tests in which he bowled 21000 balls. This 21000 count is lot more than what Imran bowled in his career.
Another thing is the bowling support strength. For instance bowling support strength of Botham was 31.53. Means , on the average Botham bowled along with 3 fellow bowlers in general who averaged 31.53 each in all his tests . For Kapil it was 38.80 after his first 21823 balls(Botham has 21815 in his entire career). See the difference.... 31.53 against 38.80.
Similarly there are quite a few adversities against which Kapil achieved his averages.
Wr.t batting, several top tier batsmen were striking at early 40s in Kapil's period. It was there that Viv stood out by far from the group striking at 70. That's one of the vital reasons as to why Viv is regarded so higher as a batsman. Kapil had almost 82. The likes of Sehwag, Gilchrist,Kapil who are having str: of 80+ were impact batsmen who deserve lot more weightage than their plain average provides
With out taking these contexts into account , I don't thing there is much sense in ranking players based on plain averages.
That's exactly the reasons as to why I regard Kapil so highly.
the higher the amount of runs/inns, the more weightage for str: . Southee only averages around 16. Still he should get more weightage than 'a lower order batsman who averages 16 with very lower str:'.
capt_Luffy
International Regular
I genuinely think it should had been a top 7; as in Top 5 almost 4 (even arguably all 5) players are too tough to remove.
Could had also added Mike Procter as an option, would had been interesting.
Also, the fact that Kapil has fewer votes than Flintoff is pure crap.....
Could had also added Mike Procter as an option, would had been interesting.
Also, the fact that Kapil has fewer votes than Flintoff is pure crap.....
capt_Luffy
International Regular
Okay, here's my attempt to rank all of them:
1. Garry Sobers
2. Imran Khan
3. Keith Miller
4. Jacques Kallis
5. Ian Botham
6. Wilfred Rhodes
7. Kapil Dev
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Shaun Pollock
10. Aubrey Faulkner
11. Ravindra Jadeja
12. Shakib Al Hasan
13. Frank Woolley
14. Monty Noble
15. Ben Stokes
16. Vinoo Mankad
17. Tony Greig
18. Chris Cairns
19. Wally Hammond
20. Ravichandran Ashwin
21. Richie Benaud
22. Jack Gregory
23. Warwick Armstrong
24. Mushtaq Mohammad
25. Brian McMillan
26. Maurice Tate
27. Andrew Flintoff
28. Ray Lindwall
29. Trevor Bailey
30. Wasim Akram
31. Heath Streak
32. Sanath Jayasuriya
33. Chris Woakes
Some other players I would rank above certain others:
Learie Constantine, Jason Holder, Collie Smith, Gerry Gomez, Allan Davidson, Charlie MaCartney, Trevor Goddard (the most notable exception), Mike Procter (the best cricketer to be left out), Eddie Barlow, Jimmy Sinclair, W G Grace (the player about whom you could create the strongest argument to be in Top 5), Billy Barnes, Allan Steel, George Hirst, Ted Dexter, Stanley Jackson, Gubby Allen, Ray Illingworth, Intikhab Alam, John Richard Reid, Daniel Vettori (most notable modern exception), Bruce Taylor, Colin de Grandhomme, Chamunda Vaas, Sikander Raza.
1. Garry Sobers
2. Imran Khan
3. Keith Miller
4. Jacques Kallis
5. Ian Botham
6. Wilfred Rhodes
7. Kapil Dev
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Shaun Pollock
10. Aubrey Faulkner
11. Ravindra Jadeja
12. Shakib Al Hasan
13. Frank Woolley
14. Monty Noble
15. Ben Stokes
16. Vinoo Mankad
17. Tony Greig
18. Chris Cairns
19. Wally Hammond
20. Ravichandran Ashwin
21. Richie Benaud
22. Jack Gregory
23. Warwick Armstrong
24. Mushtaq Mohammad
25. Brian McMillan
26. Maurice Tate
27. Andrew Flintoff
28. Ray Lindwall
29. Trevor Bailey
30. Wasim Akram
31. Heath Streak
32. Sanath Jayasuriya
33. Chris Woakes
Some other players I would rank above certain others:
Learie Constantine, Jason Holder, Collie Smith, Gerry Gomez, Allan Davidson, Charlie MaCartney, Trevor Goddard (the most notable exception), Mike Procter (the best cricketer to be left out), Eddie Barlow, Jimmy Sinclair, W G Grace (the player about whom you could create the strongest argument to be in Top 5), Billy Barnes, Allan Steel, George Hirst, Ted Dexter, Stanley Jackson, Gubby Allen, Ray Illingworth, Intikhab Alam, John Richard Reid, Daniel Vettori (most notable modern exception), Bruce Taylor, Colin de Grandhomme, Chamunda Vaas, Sikander Raza.
Last edited:
Red_Ink_Squid
Cricketer Of The Year
This was in ascending order of quality, right?
capt_Luffy
International Regular
YESSS
Last edited: