tooextracool
International Coach
on topic, persisting with failure is alright if you see some sort of light in someone's performances, either at the domestic level or at the international level. the classic example of attapattu is valid here.
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Persisting with Failure : Good captaincy or Stupid Obstinacy ??
- Thread starter SJS
- Start date
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I am fuly aware of and understand the politics of Indian cricket in general and North Indian cricket in particular. Thats why I put Kirti's official position and that of Malhotra in perspective AND IN BOLD LETTERS.Sanz said:
However, having said that, their poitical and regional agendas do not take away from the fact that yuvraj being asked to open was not justified by any cricketing logic. Anyone who understands the game can see that. Infact, this is the reason why it could not be sustained. Ganguly was hoping that one slam bam fifty , or thereabouts would justify his selection. With Yuvraj's game not allowing that , he was not able to push beyond one test.
If Yuvraj's selection had been based on cricketing merits (his game, defense, understanding of which ball to play and which to leave being good enough for a test opener), then a single test failure would not have meant his unceremonious ouster. Agterall the man who is replacing him also failed in both inings of the first test.
Chopra, inspite of his first test failures, had many asking for him to be reatined and have asked for him to be brought back , inspite of his two failures, BECAUSE his game makes him a better candidate for opening while Yuvraj is no test opener whatsoever !!
Even if he had managed to get a fifty in the second test, this fact wouldnt have changed. It will change only if there is a change in Yuvraj's batting.
So while poiltics cant be used to justify criticism of Yuvraj, it cant be used to keep him in a position which he doesnt deserve.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Maninder Singh on TV on Parthiv Patel (Approximate words) :
"The love for Parthiv is misplaced. It will do him much more harm than good. I am afraid we may have another Deep Dasgupta in the making"
Waqar Younis on Parthiv (Approximate words) :
" He should have been dropped many tests ago. He is young and can go back and try to make a come back a year or two down the line. He is only 19. There is no reason to persisit with him in a class of cricket where he is so obviouly a misfit"
"The love for Parthiv is misplaced. It will do him much more harm than good. I am afraid we may have another Deep Dasgupta in the making"
Waqar Younis on Parthiv (Approximate words) :
" He should have been dropped many tests ago. He is young and can go back and try to make a come back a year or two down the line. He is only 19. There is no reason to persisit with him in a class of cricket where he is so obviouly a misfit"
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Exactly. Sidhu is no different from others in the Indian/regional cricket establishment, he too would like to get his state player (Yuvraj) to play irrespective of cricketing merit, just as Kirti would like Delhi boys lke Sehwag, Chopra and Nehra in.Sanz said:
So whats new ?
Is their word all that can decide the 'truth'. Isnt 'seeing and believing' better than 'hearing and believing'
Before, I am jumped upon. I gave my opinion based on what I SAW of Yuvraj's batting and whatever little I know of the game, Yuvraj is no test opener. And unless he changes his game considerably, never will.
I quoted from the ex-selectors to show how they change their tune the moment they leave the selection committee. And I showed up their regional agendas anyway.
Incidentally, another Yuvraj supporter gave the logic that Yuvraj should be an opener rather than a middle order batsman since he cant play spinners !!
I think we can now say safely that Parthiv should be a fast bowler since he cant be a wicket keeper and Agarkar a spinner since he isnt doing much as a medium pacer.
Logic
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Top_Cat
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Excuse me whilst I laugh in the faces of all those CW.net members who were rating Patel as better than Adam Gilchrist a few months back.
*clears throat*
Anyway, yeah I think it's time to give Patel a break. He's not coping with the pressure (and who would be able to at 19 years of age?) and does need some time to rebuild himself as a Test standard player. He's done so very well in his career so far and when he comes back, I'm sure he'll be one of India's better players. But for now, someone else has to have a go.
*clears throat*
Anyway, yeah I think it's time to give Patel a break. He's not coping with the pressure (and who would be able to at 19 years of age?) and does need some time to rebuild himself as a Test standard player. He's done so very well in his career so far and when he comes back, I'm sure he'll be one of India's better players. But for now, someone else has to have a go.
V Reddy
International Debutant
Well though i was a staunch supporter of Ganguly but i have become sick of his selectorial tactics now. He seems to only support players he likes 
. Chopra, Rohan Gavaskar , AA, Parthiv, Yuvraj , Nehra , etc,. No matter how they perform we always see the same above set of players. It doesn't matter how many runs Sriram , Jadhav , Rao , Badani, Gambhir score or how many wickets Amit Bhandari , Salvi , Paul , etc,. take, they just don't get a look in and keeping wise the same is the case for Dhoni , Karthik,etc,.
Don't know for how long i have been mentioning Patel's keeping, that i am just tired of commenting on it again
. Chopra, Rohan Gavaskar , AA, Parthiv, Yuvraj , Nehra , etc,. No matter how they perform we always see the same above set of players. It doesn't matter how many runs Sriram , Jadhav , Rao , Badani, Gambhir score or how many wickets Amit Bhandari , Salvi , Paul , etc,. take, they just don't get a look in and keeping wise the same is the case for Dhoni , Karthik,etc,. Don't know for how long i have been mentioning Patel's keeping, that i am just tired of commenting on it again
V Reddy
International Debutant
Dasgupta on Patel
Well that's the problem with playing for small teams like Bengal and Andhra. No matter how much you have improved as a keeper , you won't get a look in as those teams don't pass the league stage and the selectors are lazy chaps
. Now-a-days the mention of word Dasgupta has become a sin and synonym with terrible keeping, though the guy has improved much as a keeper.
Well that's the problem with playing for small teams like Bengal and Andhra. No matter how much you have improved as a keeper , you won't get a look in as those teams don't pass the league stage and the selectors are lazy chaps
. Now-a-days the mention of word Dasgupta has become a sin and synonym with terrible keeping, though the guy has improved much as a keeper.
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Hmmm...exactly what I had to say.V Reddy said:Well though i was a staunch supporter of Ganguly but i have become sick of his selectorial tactics now. He seems to only support players he likes
Don't know for how long i have been mentioning Patel's keeping, that i am just tired of commenting on it again
About Deep 'The Drop' Dasgupta, if a batsman he dropped on zero got a double hundred, do you really think he'd ever get another chance? Besides, Gujarat is not a major team, is it? Mumbai and TN, even Delhi, offer better keepers.
Bishen Singh Bedi's question returns- What have Vijay Dahiya and Ajay Ratra done wrong?
V Reddy
International Debutant
But should a keeper be counted for on the number of mistakes he makes or on the thing which is not in his control i.e., the no of runs the batsman scores after the batsman has been droppedArjun said:
. Well then Patel has already cost India an abroad series victory in Aus when he missed all those stumpings of Katich and Ponting in that last test.
Dar
School Boy/Girl Captain
Patel's performance is like what happens sometimes in club cricket on a Saturday when someone doesn't show up and the team are a man short so one of the guys gets their eleven year old son to play to make up numbers. They stick him on the boundary all game and evry time the ball goes to him he lets it through his legs for four and drops every catch which comes his way and all the other players are annoyed inside but let him off cos he's a kid.
The only difference is Patel is a wicketkepper and playing for India against the best side in the world in what was labelled as the biggest test series of the last few years.
The only difference is Patel is a wicketkepper and playing for India against the best side in the world in what was labelled as the biggest test series of the last few years.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
New revelation by Kirti Azad
Last evening in the presence of Ajay Jadeja and selector Asok Malhotra, Kirti Azad said on live TV that, the selection of Parthiv was not unanimous. Two out of the five selectors , himself and selection committee Chairman (former keeping great) Kirmani were against.
However, this was not the most sensational bit.
According to Kirti, when Kirmani pointed out the deficiencies of Parthiv as a keeper , another selector (whom he refused to name to avoid opening a can of worms) abused Kirmani and called him a goal keeper , a long stop and asked him what were his (Kirmani's) own credentials !!!
We havent heard the last of what is quickly becoming a major scandal. Now we need Parthiv to drop a few more sitters for the sh** to really hit the sky
Last evening in the presence of Ajay Jadeja and selector Asok Malhotra, Kirti Azad said on live TV that, the selection of Parthiv was not unanimous. Two out of the five selectors , himself and selection committee Chairman (former keeping great) Kirmani were against.
However, this was not the most sensational bit.
According to Kirti, when Kirmani pointed out the deficiencies of Parthiv as a keeper , another selector (whom he refused to name to avoid opening a can of worms) abused Kirmani and called him a goal keeper , a long stop and asked him what were his (Kirmani's) own credentials !!!
We havent heard the last of what is quickly becoming a major scandal. Now we need Parthiv to drop a few more sitters for the sh** to really hit the sky
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
And it's anybody's guess who is this selector Kirti is talking about. Kiran More the current chief selector who is also from Baroda.
Still I dont understand Kirti's point, why is he speaking now, He and his selection committee selected Parthiv for at least 5-6 tours in last 3 years including the world cup.
Still I dont understand Kirti's point, why is he speaking now, He and his selection committee selected Parthiv for at least 5-6 tours in last 3 years including the world cup.
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
I dont understand why everyone is ganged up against Patel, okay he is bad behind wickets, but that is not the reason why India is losing. How many runs have top batsman (Dravid, Sachin, Laxman, Yuvraj, chopra, Ganguly, Sehwag etc) have scored in this series ? IMO India's batting has been the real problem in this series which everyone has been ignoring all along and P arthiv is being made a scapegoat.
If not for his WicketKeeping skills, He can play in this team on his batting skills alone. Considering the position he bats, it seems to me that he is the most consistent and confident Indian batsman in this series and I dont want him to sit out. Depending on the current form and not the past reputation I would rather have Patel in my team purely as a batsman in place of either one of Laxman, Dravid, Yuvraj, Sehwag, Chopra and Ganguly. I dont understand why people tolerate Laxman's inconsistent performance, his poor fielding, his attitude, his poor commitment. Same goes for Sehwag, most of the time out to poor shot selection, very inconsistent batting, Zero Responsibilty, extremely poor fielder. Dravid, So called Mr. Wall, comes in form once in 5 years that too when all the good bowlers of the opposition are either injured or have retired, continues to whine about his role in the team. Duh !! I still cant understand why the whole world goes gaga over his over rated batting. He is the biggest choker in this team. Except for 1-2 years of good international cricket, I dont remember him being any good.
Ganguly, Yuvraj and Chopra dont even deserve my time.
If Parthiv's wicket keeping sucks, then Please drop anyone of the above I have mentioned and bring in a new wicketkeeper. I like Parthiv as a batsman, he has performed well as an opener(In Pakistan), as a slogger (in Sydney), as a tail order batsman, as a middle order batsman. Why should he be dropped ?? He along with Irfan Pathan seem to be the only men in this team of superstars. Rest of them are just a bunch of losers.
If not for his WicketKeeping skills, He can play in this team on his batting skills alone. Considering the position he bats, it seems to me that he is the most consistent and confident Indian batsman in this series and I dont want him to sit out. Depending on the current form and not the past reputation I would rather have Patel in my team purely as a batsman in place of either one of Laxman, Dravid, Yuvraj, Sehwag, Chopra and Ganguly. I dont understand why people tolerate Laxman's inconsistent performance, his poor fielding, his attitude, his poor commitment. Same goes for Sehwag, most of the time out to poor shot selection, very inconsistent batting, Zero Responsibilty, extremely poor fielder. Dravid, So called Mr. Wall, comes in form once in 5 years that too when all the good bowlers of the opposition are either injured or have retired, continues to whine about his role in the team. Duh !! I still cant understand why the whole world goes gaga over his over rated batting. He is the biggest choker in this team. Except for 1-2 years of good international cricket, I dont remember him being any good.
Ganguly, Yuvraj and Chopra dont even deserve my time.
If Parthiv's wicket keeping sucks, then Please drop anyone of the above I have mentioned and bring in a new wicketkeeper. I like Parthiv as a batsman, he has performed well as an opener(In Pakistan), as a slogger (in Sydney), as a tail order batsman, as a middle order batsman. Why should he be dropped ?? He along with Irfan Pathan seem to be the only men in this team of superstars. Rest of them are just a bunch of losers.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Come on Sanz.Sanz said:
No one has ganged up against Parthiv Patel. Its just that his bad keeping stands out so dramatically and his past record (as a keeper) isnt such as to justify his continued inclusion as would failures by those with much longer proven records like Sachin, Dravid, Laxman Sehwag.
You dont have to take it personally. Fans , public, spectators always react like this. This is not ganging up against Parthiv. This is just the frustration of fans who are so disappointed at India's poor performance. You are right. Parthiv is not the only one who has failed in doing a decent job in this series but he is the most glaring AND easy to target. If he had kept well and India was still going to fair as badly, you can be sure the abuse would have been directed more at the batsmen then it is now. Whats surprising about that. Relax
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I dont know why he is speaking now ? Maybe he is upset at not being a selector anymoreSanz said:
I think the more likely reason is that under the code of conduct of the BCCI, selectors can not comment on the debate/voting during selectors meetings as long as they are members of the committee.
According to him, both he and Kirmani have been voting for dropping Patel for quite sometime but they were outvoted 2 to 3 everytime. And yes, he has confirmed(in an interview to Times of India), that it was More who abused Kirmani and questioned his credentials to comment on Patel's keeping.
Check todays TOI, Bombay edition, sports page for details. BTW, he could not be saying all this in public without there being some truth in it for surely this is going to blow up.
Deja moo
International Captain
Excerpt from an article on cricinfo :
" We recently culled out some stats from our ball-by-ball records and they looked alarming: including this Test, his 19th, Parthiv has missed 23 chances, and conceded 176 byes, costing India a total of 675 runs, 38 more than he has scored. This is a simplistic calculation of course, because all wicketkeepers miss catches and stumpings and sometimes the reprieved batsmen go on to put up huge scores. But with Parthiv, catches rather than being routine, are beginning to become an exception. "
Complete article here.
" We recently culled out some stats from our ball-by-ball records and they looked alarming: including this Test, his 19th, Parthiv has missed 23 chances, and conceded 176 byes, costing India a total of 675 runs, 38 more than he has scored. This is a simplistic calculation of course, because all wicketkeepers miss catches and stumpings and sometimes the reprieved batsmen go on to put up huge scores. But with Parthiv, catches rather than being routine, are beginning to become an exception. "
Complete article here.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Deep Dasgupta made a very interesting observation yesterday when he said that to be noticed by the authorities, a wicket keeper in India HAS to perform with the bat. Its probably true and explains why India is struggling to find a good wicket keeper for the test side.
This is one more damage done by the limited over mentality.
A batting(keeper) allrounder has become the staple for one dayers. So if we cant find a Gilchrist, we manufacture one (even if a poor imitation) in Rahul Dravid. But what to do with test matches. Rahul refuses to keep in tests. (Thank God for that). So we keep working on poor keepers who can bat and refuse to persevere with keepers who may be very modest batsmen.
Ganguly in his 40 odd tests as skipper has used 6 different keepers. Of this 17 or so have been tests where dear old Parthiv has been the skipper's choice. We wont talk about his keeping. Enough has been said.
The keeper to find favour with Ganguly the next highest number of times is...well no surprises ..Deep Dasgupta. Overall a worse keeper than even Parthiv Patel (believe me its true) but a very competent batsman. Eight tests for Deep Dasgupta.
Then 6 for Sameer Dighe the Bombay batsman who also masqueraded as keeper . That leaves only 9 tests from Ganguly's 40 (my maths may be a bit in accurate).
Saba Karim 1, Vijay Dahiya 2 found no favour with the Prince of Calcutta and Ratra managed 6 thanks mainly to the century he scored (surprising even his most fervent supporters) in a test in West Indies. So how do we expect to get , let alone groom a wicket keeper for test matches if it is his skills with the bat that are going to be our major consideration.
This when we have the (supposedly some would say) strongest batting line up (at least on paper) in the world.
Shortsightedness in extreme !!!
This is one more damage done by the limited over mentality.
A batting(keeper) allrounder has become the staple for one dayers. So if we cant find a Gilchrist, we manufacture one (even if a poor imitation) in Rahul Dravid. But what to do with test matches. Rahul refuses to keep in tests. (Thank God for that). So we keep working on poor keepers who can bat and refuse to persevere with keepers who may be very modest batsmen.
Ganguly in his 40 odd tests as skipper has used 6 different keepers. Of this 17 or so have been tests where dear old Parthiv has been the skipper's choice. We wont talk about his keeping. Enough has been said.
The keeper to find favour with Ganguly the next highest number of times is...well no surprises ..Deep Dasgupta. Overall a worse keeper than even Parthiv Patel (believe me its true) but a very competent batsman. Eight tests for Deep Dasgupta.
Then 6 for Sameer Dighe the Bombay batsman who also masqueraded as keeper
. That leaves only 9 tests from Ganguly's 40 (my maths may be a bit in accurate).Saba Karim 1, Vijay Dahiya 2 found no favour with the Prince of Calcutta and Ratra managed 6 thanks mainly to the century he scored (surprising even his most fervent supporters) in a test in West Indies. So how do we expect to get , let alone groom a wicket keeper for test matches if it is his skills with the bat that are going to be our major consideration.
This when we have the (supposedly some would say) strongest batting line up (at least on paper) in the world.
Shortsightedness in extreme !!!
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