Persisting with Failure : Good captaincy or Stupid Obstinacy ??

[bryce]

yeah ok it was only an example, but do you think patel is one of the top 6 batsman in india ?(which obviously is what the test teams batting line-up is made out of).

 

[Arjun]

yeah ok it was only an example, but do you think patel is one of the top 6 batsman in india ?(which obviously is what the test teams batting line-up is made out of).

No! NEVER! Sure, pop-glove Patel has got more runs, but can he change a match with his batting? No way! You should have mentioned Sriram, Gambhir or JAdhav instead.

 

[marc71178]

The thing is, Patel has shown he can score runs in Tests - and that means more than domestic runs.

 

[Arjun]

The thing is, Patel has shown he can score runs in Tests - and that means more than domestic runs.

But can he change a match? If you want to pick someone because of batting, you should pick someone who can make a mark as a batsman on a match. Gilchrist, Jacobs, Stewart, Boucher and even McCullum have. Patel hasn't. That does not make up for his wicketkeeping.

 

[bryce]

The thing is, Patel has shown he can score runs in Tests - and that means more than domestic runs.

Your saying you should keep him in the team because he has hit a few medium sized scores when the people who are making big scores in domestic cricket amazingly consistently don't even get a try at doing that in test cricket and as Arjun said they have the ability to change a match with their batting and have done it against india's best, i for one would rather find out if they can do it at test level than put patel in to hit a 'cameo' innings(at best), he will go through a match without missing a chance before he changes a match with his batting and as someone said earlier he needs time to build up his confidence in the domestic arena.

 

[Top_Cat]

But can he change a match? If you want to pick someone because of batting, you should pick someone who can make a mark as a batsman on a match. Gilchrist, Jacobs, Stewart, Boucher and even McCullum have. Patel hasn't. That does not make up for his wicketkeeping.

I tend to agree. Although, as Marc rightly points out, he's made some good Test runs, he hasn't made them under the pressure of being further up the order and/or without being able to fall back on his wicketkeeping (i.e. in the side as a specialist batsman).

Having thought more about my comments that maybe he should be dropped; who are the likely 'keeping candidates to replace him? Is there anyone else other than Ratra?

 

[Arjun]

Come back Nayan! All is forgiven!

Ratra would not be a bad choice (unless your name's Gambit) as a keeper, given his speed and reflexes, which are the best for a keeper, but he's not a classical wicketkeeper, and his technique is no great shakes, though he's not had as many missed chances as Parthiv and Deep "The Drop" Dasgupta. Added to that, if he scores 20 runs or more and builds a partnership, he can be useful, but if he struggles to score even two runs, his chances of returning are slim.

A lot has been said of Dinesh Karthik. He too is very dependable, and he is fast, though not as fast as Ratra, and his batting is of top-6 quality. You can also try MS Dhoni, who shot to fame with some hard hitting in Kenya, against Kenya and the Pakistani A team. He bats a lot like Balaji, and even looks like him (and is a tall keeper, probably 6'1"), but his keeping is average, though the chances stick. Vinayak Samant keeps well to spinners, and he should also get a chance.

 

[SJS]

Come back Nayan! All is forgiven!

If fit, Mongia is perhaps the best choice in all respects. It will also give time to groom an understudy like Karthik or Dhoni or Ratra.

 

[Arjun]

If fit, Mongia is perhaps the best choice in all respects. It will also give time to groom an understudy like Karthik or Dhoni or Ratra.

Not too many, save the two of us, would agree. That Parthiv lobbyist for instance. A few think he is not a team man. He even wore a yellow helmet, but after a long exile, hopefully he knows the colour of the India cap.

 

[Sanz]

Can you sincerely answer this

1. Is Parthiv keeping in the current series :
a) Excellent,
b) Good,
c) Average,
d) Poor ?

2. Should Parthiv be :
a) India's keeper for the next three years,
b) the keeper for the fourth test,
c) dropped(as a keeper) and brought back (as a keeper) after some more time in the domestic circuit provided India hasnt discovered a very good keeper in the meantime who deserves being persisted with (clarifying yet again he may be considered today, tomorrow anytime as a batsman alone)
d) thrown out of Indian cricket for good ?

SJS, I have never defended Parthiv's Wicket Keeping in this thread. Yes his wicket keeping has been poor in this series, and he should be dropped as a wicketkeeper. My problem is with the way we (fans, ex-cricketers, ex-selectors) are all wanting him as the scapegoat in the middle of a TEST. Parthiv Can not drop himself, can he ? It is the selectors who pick him should drop him even if they are called names, I dont understand the wait and humiliation of a 19 year old kid in the middle of a TEST. Drop him for god's sake, But dont humilate him.

Oh Btw, I want him to play in our side as a PURE batsman, I have watched him bat and he does have the potential to be a good batsman, at least better than Chopra, Yuvraj, Kaif, Sehwag, Ganguly and Laxman.


Imagine this, Let's assume that you are the CEO of a company which is not doing that well and your clients are not happy with one of your staff, you know that there is a problem, the staff doesn't have enough experience to handle the responsibility he has been given. Now what would you do :-

1. Give your staff a dressing down in staff meeting
2. Give your staff a dressing down again this time in front of client(s)
3. Insult him by repeatedly mentioning his performance in company newsletters and board meetins blaming his performance as the main reason for your company's problem
4. Quietly Send him on training and try to replace him with a more equipped staff.

 

[Sanz]

Not too many, save the two of us, would agree. That Parthiv lobbyist for instance. A few think he is not a team man. He even wore a yellow helmet, but after a long exile, hopefully he knows the colour of the India cap.

There is no Parthiv Lobbyist here, Arjun. You are the only who believes in Lobbies, Rest of us just want a good Indian team which is consistent in its performance.

Yes, Mongia isn't a team man. He was involved in match fixing, he wore a yellow helmet, he has no respect for his team mates and I would rather have Patel or even a Deep dasgupta in my team than going back to Mongia days. Those were the most embarrasing days in the Indian cricket history Azhar-Prabhakar-Jadeja-Mongia . I dont want to be a part of it and If Mongia is ever selected to play for India, I, for sure, would stop following Indian cricket.

 

[Sanz]

But can he change a match? If you want to pick someone because of batting, you should pick someone who can make a mark as a batsman on a match. Gilchrist, Jacobs, Stewart, Boucher and even McCullum have. Patel hasn't. That does not make up for his wicketkeeping.

why compare him to players who are not in your team, Compare him to Yuvraj, Kaif, Chopra and Ganguly and tell us how many of them won test matches or are capable of winning winning a test match on their own.

 

[SJS]

Imagine this, Let's assume that you are the CEO of a company which is not doing that well and your clients are not happy with one of your staff, you know that there is a problem, the staff doesn't have enough experience to handle the responsibility he has been given. Now what would you do :-

1. Give your staff a dressing down in staff meeting
2. Give your staff a dressing down again this time in front of client(s)
3. Insult him by repeatedly mentioning his performance in company newsletters and board meetins blaming his performance as the main reason for your company's problem
4. Quietly Send him on training and try to replace him with a more equipped staff.

I must tell you I have been in such a situation

Yes I would take the fourth option (something very close to it any way). So what we are saying is that Parthiv doesnt deserve the abuse since being selected even when he is not doing well is not his fault. Yes thats absolutely true and I have repeatedly said so.

Just go back to the 'thread-starter' for this thread and you will see. I quote from there :-

Here is a keeper who showed some promise when he first came in and a helluva lot of spunk whenever he got an opportunity to bat in a tight situation. So, what happened ? He started having a bad time behind the stumps.

Is this the fate that awaits Parthiv Patel. Looks like it. And who is responsible for it ? Parthiv Patel or those who refused to change him when he looked like he was out of form

Dropped now, he will almost certainly be lost to Indian cricket forever. He has become a laughing stock and is being derided by the spectators across the sub continent. Today 60% of all questions from the experts after the day's play were about why do we have to suffer Parthiv. Surely the poor boy deserves better !!

You can see I have said exactly what you are saying. If anything, more emphatically.

 

[tooextracool]

I tend to agree. Although, as Marc rightly points out, he's made some good Test runs, he hasn't made them under the pressure of being further up the order and/or without being able to fall back on his wicketkeeping (i.e. in the side as a specialist batsman).

hes only played 2 innings up the order, 1 of which was in NZ, where i think given the nature of the pitches he certainly cant be blamed for failing, and the other in pakistan which certainly was a high pressure situation, in which he scored 69.

 

[Sudeep]

I must tell you I have been in such a situation

Yes I would take the fourth option (something very close to it any way). So what we are saying is that Parthiv doesnt deserve the abuse since being selected even when he is not doing well is not his fault. Yes thats absolutely true and I have repeatedly said so.

Just go back to the 'thread-starter' for this thread and you will see. I quote from there :-

Here is a keeper who showed some promise when he first came in and a helluva lot of spunk whenever he got an opportunity to bat in a tight situation. So, what happened ? He started having a bad time behind the stumps.

Is this the fate that awaits Parthiv Patel. Looks like it. And who is responsible for it ? Parthiv Patel or those who refused to change him when he looked like he was out of form

Dropped now, he will almost certainly be lost to Indian cricket forever. He has become a laughing stock and is being derided by the spectators across the sub continent. Today 60% of all questions from the experts after the day's play were about why do we have to suffer Parthiv. Surely the poor boy deserves better !!

You can see I have said exactly what you are saying. If anything, more emphatically.

I remember saying a few months back, Parthiv is the long-term solution of India's wicket-keeping problem, but not the immediate one.

I believe he was brought onto the scene too early. A break here won't do too bad. Yes, it a trend that if you're dropped once from the Indian team, you're never heard of again, but the selectors while giving him a break should assure that he's the future. That might in fact motivate Parthiv to improve leaps and bounds.

The kid's got the spirit, all he needs is a bit of refining of technique.

 

[honestbharani]

SJS, I am not taking it personally. I am not related to Parthiv, neither am I from Baroda nor a Patel. Yes he drops some easy ones so what there are many keepers who do it, Take for example Moin Khan, Mark Boucher and Brendon Mccullum. And if he is that bad Please get a new wicketkeeper, but let him play as a batsman, he will play better than Mr. Chopra and Mr. Singh. He has proved it time and again.

As for the analysis someone did on Parthiv's wicket Keeping, Can someone do an analysis on the no. of catches Laxman has dropped, no. of times he has misfielded, no of times he has been involved in a runout, no. of times he has converted 2 runs into 1s and 3s into 2s because of his poor running, no. of times he has refused to take a single because he is too lazy to take a single. In last 8 or 9 innings (Since Sydney) he has only one score of 50+ and he is miserable in this series. I dont think he has proved enough.

It seems to me that we are looking for a scapegoat and since no one has the balls to touch 'Dravid', 'Sachin', 'Ganguly', 'Lax' & 'Sehwag' (because they are too big and too powerful to be touched) and now that the bowlers have performed well, only one person remains to be sacrificed and that is 'PARTHIV PATEL'. Easiest of the target, and what a timing it was, in the middle of such an important test. You open any newspapers, go to any website, people are gunning for one man and that is 'Parthiv Patel'.

A team does not win or lose because a single player or because of a single group of players. I have seen teams bat as badly as India did in this series and still win, or atleast, put up a good fight. It basically comes down to everyone performing their roles. It is perfectly obvious that Patel is not doing his job properly and since the replacements seem to be talented, why not try them now? As for the batters, they have proved themselves to be very very good before and therefore, they get a longer rope. Are you trying to suggest that Sehwag, Sachin, Laxman, Sourav, Dravid are worser as batsmen than Patel is as keeper?



As for your comparisons with McCullum, Moin and Boucher, they have done much much better than Parthiv and they never dropped so many sitters in a series as Parthiv has done or atleast they take outstanding catches and hit centuries to make up for it. Either way, it is obvious that they are good keepers going through a bad patch. They never kept dropping sitters for a year, which is what Parthiv has been doing. Finally, are you trying to suggest that Parthiv is the best keeper in India? I don't think he is and neither do many of the other people in this forum. Hence, we are calling for him to be replaced.


Your talk about Laxman dropping catches is misplaced. I can't remember the last time he put down a sitter in Test cricket. I never liked him playing in ODIs as he heavily depends on form and rhythm and sometimes, they are harder to find in ODIs than Tests.


This is not a sacrfice, mate, this is a change made to get the team to do better. Perhaps, with a good keeper behind the stumps, we can limit the opponents's score to around the 250 or 200 mark and that might relax our batters who might play better then. The bottomline is that Parthiv is a poor keeper and hence should be dropped. I am not averse to changing the batsmen either, as they have not done their job too. But since we are talking about Parthiv here, I really think he should be dropped. That is all. Nothing personal against him. Maybe he could be sent to the Australian or English academy to work on the basics of keeping so that if he comes back, he can perform better.

 

[bryce]

As for your comparisons with McCullum, Moin and Boucher, they have done much much better than Parthiv and they never dropped so many sitters in a series as Parthiv has done or atleast they take outstanding catches and hit centuries to make up for it.

actually mccullum done the opposite of patel, he started off as a very average international keeper(missing a fair few chances) & batsman and then gradually improved until now when he is starting to hit his straps, i guess everyone thought parthiv was going to do the same - or even better given his good start in internationals.

 

[bryce]

No! NEVER! Sure, pop-glove Patel has got more runs, but can he change a match with his batting? No way! You should have mentioned Sriram, Gambhir or JAdhav instead.

Nice picks

 

[krishneelz]

well your wish has come true patel is gorrrrn and gambhir and jadhav are in

 

[SJS]

'I see sinister designs'
Kirti Azad
http://cricket.indiatimes.com/articleshow/904761.cms

Excerpts

Some stupid decisions have also hurt our cause. Why is the Chopra-Sehwag pair, which did so well in Australia and Pakistan, not clicking today? Well, the captain announced his intention of getting Yuvraj to open the batting. That was the beginning of the decline. Chopra's morale was obviously shattered. He knew there was a sword of Damocles hanging over his head. Then what happens? Yuvraj opens in Chennai and Chopra sits on the bench. In Nagpur, it is vice-versa. What sense does this make? You are neither allowing Chopra to settle, nor giving Yuvraj a fair trial at the top of the order.

What if I were to say that Yuvraj is the only batsman threatening the established middle order? He is left-handed, a stroke-player and an attractive one at that (in advertisements too). You push him up the order and whether he succeeds or fails, there is no more threat to the middle order. If I see a sinister design in this and if somebody disagrees with me, he must give me a convincing explanation. After all, you can't stop people speculating.


What made the Frontier crash?
Bobbilli Vijay Kumar
http://cricket.indiatimes.com/articleshow/904776.cms

Excerpts

Sadly, the team itself is not above reproach, or indeed suspicion. Why did Ganguly raise a storm in a seemingly serene lake by planting Yuvraj Singh in the opening equation?

The team itself was divided on the issue, with every player voicing his own opinion. In the end, however, only one player suffered: Aakash Chopra. And oh yes, the mighty Indian batting crumbled along with him.

Sachin Tendulkar's non-availability for the first two Tests itself had given conspiracy theorists enough fodder to sniff out the scent of another rift. Was he still angry about that declaration in Pakistan? Is there a silent struggle for supremacy on between the Big Three in Indian cricket? Hopefully not.