Pat Cummins

[OverratedSanity]

I have no stake in this game but it does look like some of the Aussie posters here want to absolve Cummins of a lot of blame wherever possible. When it was Paine with these tactics, no one brought up the fact that Cummins, as vice-captain, was very much part of that think-tank and yet suddenly when Cummins is captain, the think-tank is the one that should be blamed.

I get that Cummins is probably the most lovable great Aussie cricketer you have had, perhaps in my lifetime, but this and the mental gymnastics around whether the bowlers would have known about sandpaper-gate etc. indicates Sachin fb level fanboism.

I wish I could like this post multiple times

 

[Prince EWS]

I wish I could like this post multiple times

Me too but you cut out the best bit.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Me too but you cut out the best bit.

We all like posts for different reasons.

 

[Starfighter]

"Taken to silly extremes and ignorant of the opposition" is the entire problem with the tactics so those caveats are odd

I'm just saying it wasn't totally unforeseeable in response to some rather silly blame shifting. (And who cares about what happened in Ian Chappell's day either.)

I don't see any way the back room could be forcing this on him. It may be a groupthink decision but he and McDonald are the two most important figures in that group.

 

[Spark]

I'm just saying it wasn't totally unforeseeable.

I don't see any way the back room could be forcing this on him. It may be a groupthink decision but he and McDonald are the two most important figures in that group.

I don't think it's a forcing thing at all, but I certainly think McDonald and Vettori aren't doing their jobs if they aren't saying "hey, are you really sure you need half a dozen boundary riders to James Anderson?". If they aren't able to have that discussion with Cummins - one that results in, well, not that happening - then they need to be sacked, even before we get to any questions about Cummins.

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think it's a forcing thing at all, but I certainly think McDonald and Vettori aren't doing their jobs if they aren't saying "hey, are you really sure you need half a dozen boundary riders to James Anderson?"

What if they did say that and were overruled?

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't think it's a forcing thing at all, but I certainly think McDonald and Vettori aren't doing their jobs if they aren't saying "hey, are you really sure you need half a dozen boundary riders to James Anderson?"

Maybe they are and Cummins is like:

 

[Spark]

What if they did say that and were overruled?

Then they don't have the authority and respect required to do those jobs and need to be sacked anyway in favour of someone who does.

I'm absolutely not calling for a return to Langerism - by and large I am very positive about the "Cummins era" of Australian cricket - but a balance is needed and we have not found it here.

 

[Starfighter]

I don't think it's a forcing thing at all, but I certainly think McDonald and Vettori aren't doing their jobs if they aren't saying "hey, are you really sure you need half a dozen boundary riders to James Anderson?"

But someone is implying it must be a forcing thing, unless the English language works very differently to the way I thought it did.

You're saying the opposite there, which is much closer to my own view. While I think there's an aspect of captaincy by committee, McDonald is hardly a powerful entity.


I don't even think there's no merit to trying short stuff against BazBall. But they need to account for the batsman's strengths and other weaknesses and to do it in bursts, not all the time.

 

[Spofforth]

Had a shocker test. I think it's time he took a break from captaincy and focus on bowling.

His bowling generally has peaked in terms of form. He is 30 years old and not a very young man anymore in this game. He started very young. His pace has dropped, just medium pace this test, and he is over worked with little support.

He also had shocker tests in India so it's starting to go downhill

I would be happy for Cummins to give up on Captaincy. Obviously tactics are discussed before the match but when you can see they are rubbish and not working out in the middle, there's only one person who can change that. That's on Cummins.

His (mis)use of his spinner, and then leaving him out entirely is largely due to Cummins inability as a Captain also IMO. It's obviously affecting his bowling personally (and bowling choices and tactics in general) but he isn't going anywhere.

I would be happy for Carey or Smith to take over. Especially Smith as that would have the advantage of rubbing the bleeding heart "b-b-but he's a cheat" brigades noses in it (would be worth it for that alone). Whether it would make much difference tactically, who knows? But I get the feeling Cummins tactics are biased too much toward him taking the ball and trying to do too much (overbowling himself at times).

 

[GotSpin]

I would be happy for Cummins to give up on Captaincy. Obviously tactics are discussed before the match but when you can see they are rubbish and not working out in the middle, there's only one person who can change that. That's on Cummins.

His (mis)use of his spinner, and then leaving him out entirely is largely due to Cummins inability as a Captain also IMO. It's obviously affecting his bowling personally (and bowling choices and tactics in general) but he isn't going anywhere.

I would be happy for Carey or Smith to take over. Especially Smith as that would have the advantage of rubbing the bleeding heart "b-b-but he's a cheat" brigades noses in it (would be worth it for that alone). Whether it would make much difference tactically, who knows? But I get the feeling Cummins tactics are biased too much toward him taking the ball and trying to do too much (overbowling himself at times).

He underbowled himself in India I thought

he clearly just isn’t very good either way

 

[Starfighter]

I would be happy for Cummins to give up on Captaincy. Obviously tactics are discussed before the match but when you can see they are rubbish and not working out in the middle, there's only one person who can change that. That's on Cummins.

His (mis)use of his spinner, and then leaving him out entirely is largely due to Cummins inability as a Captain also IMO. It's obviously affecting his bowling personally (and bowling choices and tactics in general) but he isn't going anywhere.

I would be happy for Carey or Smith to take over. Especially Smith as that would have the advantage of rubbing the bleeding heart "b-b-but he's a cheat" brigades noses in it (would be worth it for that alone). Whether it would make much difference tactically, who knows? But I get the feeling Cummins tactics are biased too much toward him taking the ball and trying to do too much (overbowling himself at times).

Can we stop with the rose-tinted views of Smith's captaincy?

 

[the big bambino]

But someone is implying it must be a forcing thing, unless the English language works very differently to the way I thought it did.

The English language works the same for all. It's just an individual's lack of comprehension that causes the confusion.

 

[Spofforth]

Can we stop with the rose-tinted views of Smith's captaincy?

I have no rose tinted view of Smith as a Captain.

I would like to see him get the Captaincy back for a couple of reasons however.

One - he would be no worse than Cummins and potentially make better bowling changes.

Secondly (and most importantly) there is a large and sanctimonious contingent of fans (particularly Aussies) who would be apoplectic. That alone would bring much joy.

 

[Spofforth]

The English language works the same for all. It's just an individual's lack of comprehension that causes the confusion.

Is not the underlined another way of saying that the English language does not work the same for all?

 

[Starfighter]

The English language works the same for all. It's just an individual's lack of comprehension that causes the confusion.

If you don't like people contesting what you wrote, don't write it (regardless of what language it's in). I interpreted what you wrote the way any reasonable person would. You reaffirmed it as well.

 

[cnerd123]

Secondly (and most importantly) there is a large and sanctimonious contingent of fans (particularly Aussies) who would be apoplectic. That alone would bring much joy.

Amen

 

[honestbharani]

I don't think it's a forcing thing at all, but I certainly think McDonald and Vettori aren't doing their jobs if they aren't saying "hey, are you really sure you need half a dozen boundary riders to James Anderson?". If they aren't able to have that discussion with Cummins - one that results in, well, not that happening - then they need to be sacked, even before we get to any questions about Cummins.

So what you are saying is you wanna assume someone did not do something and act based on that than go by what we are actually seeing on the field?

 

[subshakerz]

yeah subs is way too reliant on results and numbers without seeing anything else

Because I was watching the games. I am not saying Cummins is perfect but he managed to win the key moments of the first two games and that reflects well on him. He just looks worse because he is against Stokes who is an absolutely awesome captain.

 

[subshakerz]

Terrible logic.

Just as a bad DRS review doesn't absolve prior poor umpiring, and an unexpected performance doesn't absolve the logic of a poor selection, the possibility of winning the last test doesn't retroactively mean that the tactical mistakes of the previous tests didn't exist.

Tactical mistakes happen, like Stokes with his declaration in the 1st test doesnt make him a bad captain automatically.

Captaincy is more about bringing out the best in your team, especially when their back in against the wall and in key moments. Cummins can do that from what I have seen in this tour, aside from the nadir in this test, and I wouldn't rubbish him based on missteps.

If Cummins can go against the grind in the next test and Australia win, yeah that does reflect well on him. Beating England in England is no mean achievement.