*Official* World Test Championship Final at The Oval – June 7–11, 2023

[Qlder]

Don't understand all this Green is too young at 24 to know his game to explain why he only has 25 wkts after 21 Tests (that's a fair amount of Test experience with very few wickets)

Not comparing Green to Botham but he was also 24 after 21 Tests and he had 1035 runs @ 38.33 and 107 wickets @ 19.60. Seems like he knew his game pretty well at 24

 

[chris.hinton]

Not even the form of Steven Smith ?

With our bowlers he will struggle for runs

 

[Spark]

How is 25 wickets in 21 Tests excellent?

Green has potential but seems so overrated on here as a bowler. The next Shane Watson at best?

Green, 21Tests, 972 runs @ 36.00, one hundred, 25 wkts @ 33.84

Watson, 21Tests, 1429 runs @ 39.69, two hundreds, 38 wkts @ 28.23

Bowling stats always have to be taken with a huge grain of salt early in careers. In my experience the eye test is far better a guide to long term success than bowling average after 20 games.

Green has problems with consistency but any fool with eyes can see how much of a massive weapon a bowler that tall who can bowl 140km/h and move the ball in the air and off the seam would be. Sometimes we get too caught up in stats and forget the actual mechanics of the game here.

I also don't get why there's so much criticism here of his game. People here are going on about him as if he's taken 0/100, instead he bowled reasonably in both innings and took some important wickets. What exactly is the expectation level here...?

Don't understand all this Green is too young at 24 to know his game to explain why he only has 25 wkts after 21 Tests (that's a fair amount of Test experience with very few wickets)



Not comparing Green to Botham but he was also 24 after 21 Tests and he had 1035 runs @ 38.33 and 107 wickets @ 19.60. Seems like he knew his game pretty well at 24

Context also matters here. Are we really judging a fast bowling all rounder based on not taking wickets in the subcontinent? Because that's a pretty big chunk of his career so far.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Just on watson as a test cricketer, for a second

Watson: 3700 test runs @35, 75 wickets @33

Stokes: 6000 runs @36, 194 wickets @32

Flintoff: 3850 runs @ 32, 226 wickets @33.

Watson is no botham/greig, but his numbers are fairly close to flintoff/stokes who i'de say are generally perceived as being better than he was. Only issue is watson's lower WPM.

Also Watson was an opening bat seam allrounder (like a Barlow, Muddasar Nazar, Prabhakar) as opposed to a no 6/7 allrounder. Seeing off the new ball and setting a platform for the middle order is very different to batting with the keeper and tail.

Others with similar stats to Watto are

Oram: 1780 @ 36 & 60 @ 33
CDG: 1432 @ 39 & 49 @ 33


Kyle Mayers is someone with vastly better stats than all of them, so it will be interesting to see how he goes. He'll need to score runs against better attacks than Bangladesh's one though.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Difference is that watson had 3 years to figure out his game between his first 3 test's and his fourth, and was 24/25 when he made his test debut, and 27/28 when he came back to the side after his first few tests. Green's only 24 now and has had to figure out his bowling in international cricket. When he made his test debut he had just came back to bowling after an 18 month stint as a specialist bat and he's not had a stint where he's gone back to FC to balance that workload since.

Don't see how you can compare them at that point given the different stages of their career. Also, watson wasn't a bad test allrounder to begin with, and his stats at that point are exceptional, no? Just on watson as a test cricketer, for a second

Watson: 3700 test runs @35, 75 wickets @33

Stokes: 6000 runs @36, 194 wickets @32

Flintoff: 3850 runs @ 32, 226 wickets @33.

Watson is no botham/greig, but his numbers are fairly close to flintoff/stokes who i'de say are generally perceived as being better than he was. Only issue is watson's lower WPM.

Watson played as a specialist bat for a lot of games because he was constantly injured and often wasn't bowling, if he played at all. Obviously affects his wpm

 

[Blenkinsop]

Watson completely changed his bowling after injury too. When he first played he was rapid but didn't move the ball off the straight and was ineffective. Later on he bowled medium fast and was better. Kind of like a poor man's Shaun Pollock.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I reckon Watson vs Gayle as test allrounders who opened is interesting (Watto better bowler, but U Boss better batter):

Gayle - averaged 42 with both bat and ball

 

[Nintendo]

Don't understand all this Green is too young at 24 to know his game to explain why he only has 25 wkts after 21 Tests (that's a fair amount of Test experience with very few wickets)

Not comparing Green to Botham but he was also 24 after 21 Tests and he had 1035 runs @ 38.33 and 107 wickets @ 19.60. Seems like he knew his game pretty well at 24

Botham is very much an exception to the general trend. If you look at most all-rounder, even guys like imran, they where fairly average or downright bad early in their careers. Learning how to perform as both a bowler and a batsmen at international level is not an easy task when your a young player who hasn't even perfected there game at domestic level.


This is a bit nitpicky, but if you want a more accurate reflection of green's current achievements I'de cut out his first 4 Tests and just go with his performance this WTC cycle. When he played his first 4 Tests vs India he'd just come back to bowling after a long lay-off and wasn't allowed to bowl full spells. If you look at his stats between test 5 and now it reads:

736 runs @37, 25 wickets @29.

That's more accurate to what ide expect of him right now. Those numbers aren't perfect, obviously, and there's basically two different cricketers in there depending on conditions. He averages low 30's with the bat and low 20's with the ball when he plays in Sena in that period, but in Asia averages 50+ with the bat and is barely a part timer.

 

[Socerer 01]

this qlder guy has to be a troll with some of his takes

 

[The Sean]

How is 25 wickets in 21 Tests excellent?

Green has potential but seems so overrated on here as a bowler. The next Shane Watson at best?

Green, 21Tests, 972 runs @ 36.00, one hundred, 25 wkts @ 33.84

Watson, 21Tests, 1429 runs @ 39.69, two hundreds, 38 wkts @ 28.23

I like to see Watto talked up because I think he was a better cricketer than he is sometimes given credit for, but this isn't really a meaningful comparison. Green has just turned 24, while Watto at that point was 29.

 

[Molehill]

I think you could argue that Watson played at a time when Australia didn't have as strong a seam attack (once McGrath retired) as they have now. There were obviously decent bowlers like Lee, Harris and Johnson for example, but they were generally injury prone or inconsistent. It's not the sustained strength available now. So Green consequently probably doesn't get as many opportunities to pick up wickets.

To compare with someone like Botham is silly as he was either taking the new ball or first change. Not just coming on when everyone else has had a go.

 

[Gob]

Green has a solid technique and array of aggressive shots. Its rotating the strike part that he needs to improve. Watson comparison was an interesting one and I think Watto him self had issues with rotating the strike but I always hold him in a higher regard to Cairns, Stokes, Flintoff etc with the bat because from around 2009 to 2012, he opened the batting, faced some really good attacks and excelled

Back to Green, his bowling is fine and you don't need to mention his fielding. Any contemplation to drop him could be down to consumption of a large dose of cannabis

 

[The Sean]

I was at The Oval yesterday for this, and was at Lord's last Saturday as well - it is testament to the wonderful unpredictability of Test cricket that I would definitely have lost money betting on who of Ireland or India would last longer on those two days.

 

[Molehill]

I was at The Oval yesterday for this, and was at Lord's last Saturday as well - it is testament to the wonderful unpredictability of Test cricket that I would definitely have lost money betting on who of Ireland or India would last longer on those two days.

The Irish battled hard (far harder than India). There was also probably a fair bit more life in the Oval pitch too.

 

[Burgey]

The problem is that his whole game is so much more suited to these conditions than those he'd get back home. There's nothing to suggest he'd still be much more than a walking wicket on the slow turners he'd be playing half his games on

Yeah but he should always be considered for away tours you’d think.

 

[Burgey]

The Irish battled hard (far harder than India). There was also probably a fair bit more life in the Oval pitch too.

I thought England’s attack only had to turn up to demolish everyone at home?

 

[Molehill]

I thought England’s attack only had to turn up to demolish everyone at home?

You've not really been watching Bazball then.

 

[Ashes81]

I think Green has the potential to be a great all rounder. He's made a really decent start to his career and only time will tell just how good he becomes.

His biggest issue will be his workload, particularly his bowling. He plays all formats and has already had some injury concerns.

If he wants to be a great test all rounder, he may well have to significantly reduce his white ball cricket - particularly the franchise leagues - something that will be tough to do.

It wouldn't surprise me if he ended up like Botham and now Stokes - and end up as a batsman who bowls the bare minimum he can.

 

[Burgey]

@slippy888 have you seen this?!?!?!

 

[Molehill]

@slippy888 have you seen this?!?!?!

View attachment 36005

So he's admitting to cheating? Adds him to the list of former captain, vice captain and all the seamers.