**Official** West Indies in England 2012

[Spark]

I think this SA series should put a lot of questions to rest, one way or the other. Finn is young, fast, a strike bowler..something you need from your no. 3 guy. Because, as we've seen this series, Anderson and Broad, as good as they are, have been made to toil at times by two decent batsmen and one heave-and-hope sort.

This is Test cricket. These things will happen.

Now, I think Bresnan is flattered by his stats - in the same way I think both Anderson and Broad are much better than 30-average bowlers - but few on here will just go "look, 26 bowling average!"

EDIT: Meanwhile...

 

[Spark]

Looks high-ish. Wouldn't have given it. EDIT: Yeah, ump's call. A bit unlucky.

 

[Ruckus]

The last time I saw Finn was admittedly the Ashes, but he's got nothing on Bres. Bresnan knows where the ball will land and doesn't have an average flattered by batsmen being daft.

Finn has promise, lots of promise, but he is no Bresnan. Bresnan can also bat. England's super tail is part of the reason they're so good atm.

This is an antiquated notion now /fear smiley.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

They're both steady medium fast bowlers who can bowl consistent lines and get it to nip around, as well as the ability to kick it up a gear or two when needed.

They are well above medium fast.

Bresnan's normal pace is around 84-86mph, Broad's is above that.

Both bowl to a good length with a good bouncer but Bresnan's often works because of it's skiddy nature. Broad's can, due to his height, actually come from a fuller (though still of course short) length.

Broad doesn't normally swing the ball as much (and he generally gets the new orb) but he can also get movement from the pitch at his best pace. Bresnan generally cuts his pace a little for the latter.

Finn is tall and can get seam movement in the high 80s/low 90s. He can also get some swing and doesn't need to drop his pace to get the movement.

I also think Finn has a pretty good action which he is slowly 'smoothing off' - a bit like where Broad was 3 years ago.

 

[Ruckus]

In a sentence, he bowls a tad too short with the old ball. He has been a little on the unlucky side (with catches, edges and the like), and the combination has meant that he's not going to be taking big hauls.

Yeah probably true. I also think he might actually do too much with the new ball some of the time.

 

[Cabinet96]

Is it just me, or do umpires rarely turn LBW appeals down on height?

 

[Furball]

In a sentence, he bowls a tad too short with the old ball. He has been a little on the unlucky side (with catches, edges and the like), and the combination has meant that he's not going to be taking big hauls.

He's probably been England's unluckiest bowlerin the last year or so but his 'just fractionally too short' length is because Anderson hates being driven.

Said to Corrin about a year ago, he's probably the closest we've got to Glenn McGrath.Anderson's MO is to bowl as economically as **** these days.

 

[Spark]

He's the best swing bowler in the world. He should prepare to be driven. It's worked wonders for his bowling partner.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

Is it just me, or do umpires rarely turn LBW appeals down on height?

Speaking to other umpires about it most of us find height is the likeliest thing we would get wrong on an LBW. Umpires who know and trust each other will often work together on lbw calls.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

They are well above medium fast.

Bresnan's normal pace is around 84-86mph, Broad's is above that.

Both bowl to a good length with a good bouncer but Bresnan's often works because of it's skiddy natur. Broad's can, due to his height, actually come from a fuller (though still of course short) length.

Broad doesn't normally swing the ball as much (and he generally gets the new orb) but he can also get movement from the pitch at his best pace. Bresnan generally cuts his pace a little for the latter.

Finn is tall and can get seam movement in the high 80s/low 90s. He can also get some swing and doesn't need to drop his pace to get the movement.

I also think Finn has a pretty good action which he is slowly 'smoothing off' - a bit like where Broad was 3 years ago.

Neither Broad nor Brensan are consistent 85+ bowlers, they operate below that because that's where they're more effective.

I really wasn't trying to prove that Broad and Brensan are particularly similar btw, that was just a counter to your theory on Finn being left out due to balance reasons.

 

[Spark]

Finn is left out because he's simply not as good a cricketer as Bresnan and it's not especially close. That really is the end of it, and people arguing that Bresnan has somehow "not justified his place" (there's one on cricinfo who just showed up) are basing their arguments on anything other than cricket, because on cricketing terms, whilst I do think he's overachieved and over a lengthy period his averages will correct to more reasonable levels, you can't fault wickets + runs.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

Neither Broad nor Brensan are consistent 85+ bowlers, they operate below that because that's where they're more effective.
.

Aside from pitches like the slow ones we have had in the last two games the speed gun suggests Bresnan is indeed generally 84-86 mph - and has hit 90. Broad is generally 87-90mph and often slips over.

They adjust the pace for pitch, weather and match situations

 

[Spark]

Broad hasn't bowled consistently near 90 in a year.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Part of what's made him such a good bowler actually.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

Finn is left out because he's simply not as good a cricketer as Bresnan and it's not especially close. That really is the end of it, and people arguing that Bresnan has somehow "not justified his place" (there's one on cricinfo who just showed up) are basing their arguments on anything other than cricket, because on cricketing terms, whilst I do think he's overachieved and over a lengthy period his averages will correct to more reasonable levels, you can't fault wickets + runs.

Actually I think they are both very good, and it is a pretty close call.

The Selectors look at 'situations'.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

Broad hasn't bowled consistently near 90 in a year.

On any pitch with reasonable pace he's been high 80s consistently.

 

[Spark]

Based on what? ODIs?

Please.

 

[Biryani Pillow]

Based on what? ODIs?

Please.

All cricket

 

[Scaly piscine]

Why are people using this series as a stick to beat West Indies with? Considering how many teams have been annihilated in England over recent years - particularly Bangladesh who for some reason people are comparing West Indies with - I think this is a decent effort.

I still fancy West Indies with Narine (Gayle etc. may help too but mostly Narine) to beat New Zealand. It's the mentality with West Indies, if they get the odd win under their belts they'll play better generally. They have a horrendous record in away Tests, but I could definitely see them competing anywhere in the world really. Even if batsmen pick Narine he'll still get them out, he should knock over tailenders for fun which is a big issue with West Indies. With a bit of belief and Narine they would have probably taken Tests off Australia and India.

 

[Spark]

His most recent Test performances have had nothing to suggest that he is a better bowler - let alone all-round cricketer given Bresnan averages close to 40 with the bat. Hell, I would say he's not a better bowler than Tremlett (who seems to have vanished from the face of the earth since Lord's last year).

Seriously, the only scenarios in which I would contemplate playing Finn are A. in a case where one or both of Anderson/Broad are rested (which is a definite possibility for the 3rd Test given how much of the summer is still to come) or B. as part of a 5 man attack (which is also a possibility if Bresnan and Broad continue to improve their batting).

He is not one of the best three bowlers in England, or more pertinently, one of the best three cricketers who have bowling as their primary speciality in England. And as such playing Finn legitimately over Bresnan strikes me as wholly misguided given that Bresnan has done absolutely nothing wrong in his Test career thus far, unless we're marking down "takes wickets" and "scores runs".

Meanwhile, back at the cricket, someone give Strauss a rap on the head. One slip in this situation?!