*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[parttimer]

The cretins have certainly been out in force at the matches this series, with the 'No ball' calls EVERY delivery.

Short memory? During the Ashes Tait and Gillespie were jeered EVERYTIME they fielded / bowled. Tait, merely for misfielding a ball in the outfield and Gillespie for having a bad haircut. Both were subject to constant abuse and in particular Gillespie who was driven to the point of distraction. If both can suffer such abuse for what were pretty minor things one could imagine how badly Murali would cop it from English crowds if Warney were English.

 

[C_C]

Short memory? During the Ashes Tait and Gillespie were jeered EVERYTIME they fielded / bowled. Tait, merely for misfielding a ball in the outfield and Gillespie for having a bad haircut. Both were subject to constant abuse and in particular Gillespie who was driven to the point of distraction. If both can suffer such abuse for what were pretty minor things one could imagine how badly Murali would cop it from English crowds if Warney were English.

It is one thing questioning the competence of someone and laughing at their mistakes, quite a totally different ballgame questioning someone's integrity and implying that they are cheating.

 

[parttimer]

It was enough to drive Gillespie crazy. Eng crowds are not exempt from this type of behaviour (and it was constant) thats what i'm saying..

 

[C_C]

It was enough to drive Gillespie crazy. Eng crowds are not exempt from this type of behaviour (and it was constant) thats what i'm saying..

Well there are some things that are far more severe than others. Saying 'you suck, you are hopeless at what you do. incompetent fool!' is far less severe than saying 'you are a cheater, a chucking cheater !'
I am fairly certain(atleast, by Canadian standards), that the latter form of abuse is far worse than the former, especially since the latter can be proven to be libellious and damaging to one's reputation, while the former is just a matter of perspective.

 

[luckyeddie]

Short memory? During the Ashes Tait and Gillespie were jeered EVERYTIME they fielded / bowled. Tait, merely for misfielding a ball in the outfield and Gillespie for having a bad haircut. Both were subject to constant abuse and in particular Gillespie who was driven to the point of distraction. If both can suffer such abuse for what were pretty minor things one could imagine how badly Murali would cop it from English crowds if Warney were English.

Not at all - I remember that very well, and I can't say I approved of that either (apart from the clever bits).

It's a little different to calling a bowler for throwing though.

"one could imagine how badly Murali would cop it from English crowds if Warney were English". I'm not sure what you're saying, but don't bother. I've just spotted the excuse of the century...

Let me get this straight....

1. Gillespie has a bad haircut
2. Poms notice bad haircut
3. Poms offer to buy pegs off Gillespie
4. Gillespie loses form
5. Aussies lose Ashes

=

Gillespie's barber lost the Ashes.

Fancy that.

 

[parttimer]

It demonstrates the callousness of their crowds. Take the "where's your misses?" or "where is your caravan?" (which is prolly the least offensive dished out, given the accounts i've heard) is not too bigger leap to the chucker thing. As i say if Warney happened to be English I've no doubts Murali'd be treated shockingly. My comments were not directed at you anyway, more at LE's hypocrisy for deriding any protest about the crowd treatment meted out to Tait and Gillespie.

It is not the crowds fault that Murali very seemlingly chucks, and to have him in a rivarly with the great Warney, the hero in Aus like he is, he should expect some sort of derision from the crowd. If the shoe were on the other foot, and Warney were the percieved chucker SL fans would be just as merciless. They already give him alotta stick, he's just not a whinger like Murali.

Fact is, and the ultra slow-mo's have confirmed as much in my eyes, that this guy sails extremely close to the wind. Testing in a lab will always be meaningless because it can't replicate the conditions of the match. I doubt Murali produced his 'effort doosra' in front of the biomechanics. So him getting himself tested mid series to appease the crowd is a complete waste of time and I expect the chants to continue. If he doesn't want to appear like a chucker, he should stop bowling like one. But then again if he did he'll probably stop taking wickets, like H.S.

 

[C_C]

As i say if Warney happened to be English I've no doubts Murali'd be treated shockingly

So basically you are implying that the ill-treatment of Murali by the Aussie crowds is due to misplaced jingoism and nationalism-inspired insecurity. Basically they cannot stand the competition Murali poses to Warne and how according to popular opinion, Murali is better than Warne. Well, if thats what you are implying, atleast you are being honest

 

[C_C]

act is, and the ultra slow-mo's have confirmed as much in my eyes, that this guy sails extremely close to the wind. Testing in a lab will always be meaningless because it can't replicate the conditions of the match. I doubt Murali produced his 'effort doosra' in front of the biomechanics. So him getting himself tested mid series to appease the crowd is a complete waste of time and I expect the chants to continue. If he doesn't want to appear like a chucker, he should stop bowling like one. But then again if he did he'll probably stop taking wickets, like H.S.

Is every 2 outts 3 aussie an expert in biomechanics ? For i see a lotta Aussies having opinions on how the real conditions cannot be replicated in labs, how their 2dimentional tv managed to convey a 3-d image and how they extrapolated stuff outta this, etc etc.
For, whether you like it or not, the fact remains, Murali 'bends it' just as much as McGrath does...more so now than ever. Infact now you cannot seperate Murali from McGrath...

 

[parttimer]

So basically you are implying that the ill-treatment of Murali by the Aussie crowds is due to misplaced jingoism and nationalism-inspired insecurity. Basically they cannot stand the competition Murali poses to Warne and how according to popular opinion, Murali is better than Warne. Well, if thats what you are implying, atleast you are being honest

A bit of it is national jingoism no doubt. But Aussies aren't afraid of competition, we love it. If it were say Danish Kaneria and him dueling for the record, I'd have no doubts about him being cheered, admired and respected by our crowds - we love a winner. But since it's Murali and his dubious action the crowd thinks he doesn't deserve to be up there with Warne and they show it. They are not far off the money either.

 

[C_C]

If it were say Danish Kaneria and him dueling for the record, I'd have no doubts about him being cheered, admired and respected by our crowds - we love a winner. But since it's Murali and his dubious action the crowd thinks he doesn't deserve to be up there with Warne and they show it. They are not far off the money either.

No they are very far off the money. For if Murali doesnt deserve to be 'up there', McGrath doesnt either. Evidence categorically proves this.
Its simple arrogance from many OZ fans who refuse to change their faulty viewpoints on bowling.

 

[honestbharani]

I think it is just that most Aussie fans WANT TO think that Murali chucks so that they can knock off all "Murali Vs Warne" arguments with that one line, instead of getting into a proper cricketing debate on the performances of both these champion spinners.

 

[JASON]

Can anyone say why Brett Lee has never been tested by anyone ( neutral Biomechanist or otherwise ) ?

How come when Murali gets checked at the drop of a whistle, and Shoaib gets checked so often, Lee has not once been tested despite bowling at speeds its impossible to bowl without actually chucking ?

 

[Sanz]

If it were say Danish Kaneria and him dueling for the record, I'd have no doubts about him being cheered, admired and respected by our crowds - we love a winner.

But the fact is that Danish Kaneria has no chance of that..Only Murali does.

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/srilanka/content/story/235693.html

The latest tests were done after local media reports suggested that Murali's action was again under question because he was bowling more than 20kmph faster than when he was last tested at UWA. The tests showed that Murali's average elbow extension while bowling the doosra at 86.5 kmph was 12.2 degrees and for the offbreak it was 12.9 degrees at 95 kmph, well within the stipulated ICC limit of 15 degrees.

 

[social]

Can anyone say why Brett Lee has never been tested by anyone ( neutral Biomechanist or otherwise ) ?

How come when Murali gets checked at the drop of a whistle, and Shoaib gets checked so often, Lee has not once been tested despite bowling at speeds its impossible to bowl without actually chucking ?

Why is it impossible?

 

[Top_Cat]

Can anyone say why Brett Lee has never been tested by anyone ( neutral Biomechanist or otherwise ) ?

How come when Murali gets checked at the drop of a whistle, and Shoaib gets checked so often, Lee has not once been tested despite bowling at speeds its impossible to bowl without actually chucking ?

Uhh Jason, Brett Lee was reported in NZ in 2000, tested and cleared..........

Reported

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/australia/content/story/88787.html

Cleared

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/australia/content/story/84698.html

As for bowling at speeds where it's impossible to chuck, that's rubbish and you know it.

 

[JASON]

Why is it impossible?

Any Biomechanist can tell you why , It is absolutely impossible to reach such speed from a bowling action without actually chucking it !!

Quote

"Lee, who is regarded as one of the two or three fastest bowlers in international cricket today, was reported during Australia's three-Test series against New Zealand in March by umpire S.Venkataraghavan in the First Test, and by umpire A.Jayaprakash in the Third. In both instances the umpires submitted reports to match referee Mike Denness, who referred them on to the ICC. "

Interesting to note the Umpires who reported him, as this is unlikely to happen today as any Test in which Lee is involved will have an English/SA/NZ Umpire at the other end - so quite safe for him from that point of view and he is never ever going to be reported as I see it.

Quote

"According to a press release issued by the ACB following the press conference, Brett Lee's bowling action will be assessed independently by former Australian fast bowling great Dennis Lillee and by medical experts. "

I can see that was a very independant review !!

Quote

"This followed his participation in an extensive discussion of the matter with members of the ICC's illegal deliveries panel in an international telephone hook-up on early Tuesday evening Australian time.

Announcing the result at a media conference in Melbourne, Australian Cricket Board (ACB) Chief Executive Officer Malcolm Speed indicated that the teleconference had lasted for just over an hour and that a number of aspects of Lee's action had been considered during that period. The panel of former international cricketers, headed by former Indian great Sunil Gavaskar, had also earlier analysed slow motion video footage of the right arm fast bowler's action."

I can also see that it was a very detailed analysis since it involved an hour long discussion only on a phone hook up with 10 members of the panel and a slow motion footage was more than adequate analysis !!

Why was he never analysed under same requirements as Murali ? Why is Murali and Shoaib exceptions to the rule and having to be analysed under different criteria ?

If he has yet been analysed by current requirements and everything is whistle clear - why not he be tested like Murali but by an Independant (by this I mean truly independant Biomechanist- not the shoddy Joker from WA who comes out with little quotes whenerver it pleases him to pour oil onto Aussie Media Frenzy and witch hunt- but a Truly independant Analyst such as in University of Hong Kong ) Biomechanist in Hong kong .

Aa a medic and a person having reasonable contact with physiologists and Orthopods/ and other Sports Medicine people , I have to say it is Humanly impossible to bowl at over 145 (or even 140) without chucking those deliveries Big Time !!

 

[social]

Any Biomechanist can tell you why , It is absolutely impossible to reach such speed from a bowling action without actually chucking it !!

Quote

Interesting to note the Umpires who reported him, as this is unlikely to happen today as any Test in which Lee is involved will have an English/SA/NZ Umpire at the other end - so quite safe for him from that point of view and he is never ever going to be reported as I see it.

Quote
I can see that was a very independant review !!

Quote
I can also see that it was a very detailed analysis since it involved an hour long discussion only on a phone hook up with 10 members of the panel and a slow motion footage was more than adequate analysis !!

Why was he never analysed under same requirements as Murali ? Why is Murali and Shoaib exceptions to the rule and having to be analysed under different criteria ?

If he has yet been analysed by current requirements and everything is whistle clear - why not he be tested like Murali but by an Independant (by this I mean truly independant Biomechanist- not the shoddy Joker from WA who comes out with little quotes whenerver it pleases him to pour oil onto Aussie Media Frenzy and witch hunt- but a Truly independant Analyst such as in University of Hong Kong ) Biomechanist in Hong kong .

Aa a medic and a person having reasonable contact with physiologists and Orthopods/ and other Sports Medicine people , I have to say it is Humanly impossible to bowl at over 145 (or even 140) without chucking those deliveries Big Time !!

A completely unbiased discertation

 

[social]

So basically you are implying that the ill-treatment of Murali by the Aussie crowds is due to misplaced jingoism and nationalism-inspired insecurity. Basically they cannot stand the competition Murali poses to Warne and how according to popular opinion, Murali is better than Warne. Well, if thats what you are implying, atleast you are being honest

Cricket reports in Aus are obtained via 2 sources: local media and british-based news services, e.g. Sky Sports, BBC. The Times, etc.

In general, all of these services adopt the same mantra: Warne is the best

As a result, there is little perceived competition between the 2.

The crowd's treatment of Murali this summer is no different to what it was 10 years ago when Murali was an ordinary bowler.

Unfortunately, Murali's reaction to it has been just the same and ensures that the crowd will continue to get on his case.

He either needs to ignore it or play up to it.

 

[luckyeddie]

It demonstrates the callousness of their crowds. Take the "where's your misses?" or "where is your caravan?" (which is prolly the least offensive dished out, given the accounts i've heard) is not too bigger leap to the chucker thing. As i say if Warney happened to be English I've no doubts Murali'd be treated shockingly. My comments were not directed at you anyway, more at LE's hypocrisy for deriding any protest about the crowd treatment meted out to Tait and Gillespie.

Do you really think that I was out of order suggesting that shouting 'no ball' is not normal banter?

Does you really think that I was guilty of hypocrisy?

Does you really think that by answering in a jokey manner (Gillespie's barber, for goodness sake) I'm going over the top?

Derision implies contempt - if you really think that was my intention, I'm sorry, put it down to the language barrier, you being an Aussie and me speaking English.
If you don't, and this is a wind-up, onya, to coin a phrase.

 

[Deja moo]

Any Biomechanist can tell you why , It is absolutely impossible to reach such speed from a bowling action without actually chucking it !!

Quote

Interesting to note the Umpires who reported him, as this is unlikely to happen today as any Test in which Lee is involved will have an English/SA/NZ Umpire at the other end - so quite safe for him from that point of view and he is never ever going to be reported as I see it.

Quote
I can see that was a very independant review !!

Quote
I can also see that it was a very detailed analysis since it involved an hour long discussion only on a phone hook up with 10 members of the panel and a slow motion footage was more than adequate analysis !!

Why was he never analysed under same requirements as Murali ? Why is Murali and Shoaib exceptions to the rule and having to be analysed under different criteria ?

If he has yet been analysed by current requirements and everything is whistle clear - why not he be tested like Murali but by an Independant (by this I mean truly independant Biomechanist- not the shoddy Joker from WA who comes out with little quotes whenerver it pleases him to pour oil onto Aussie Media Frenzy and witch hunt- but a Truly independant Analyst such as in University of Hong Kong ) Biomechanist in Hong kong .

Aa a medic and a person having reasonable contact with physiologists and Orthopods/ and other Sports Medicine people , I have to say it is Humanly impossible to bowl at over 145 (or even 140) without chucking those deliveries Big Time !!

Well, newspaper reports suggest that this may have been Dalmiyas fault. Venkat says both Lee and Shoaib were referred to the ICC at that point in time. Allegedly Dalmiya needed the backing of the PCB in pushing through certain proposals in the ICC, and shoving Shoaibs case below the carpet was the price. Of course, letting Lee off the hook too was the pound of flesh demanded by Cricket Australia in return.