*Official* Pro-Wrestling Thread II

[honestbharani]

Also, I rewatched it as a 20+ guy but when it was originally going on I was not even 18 and I guess the taste, even in wrestling, has evolved over time personally. Which is why it is such a temptation to get the network and rewatch stuff just to see if I still react to them the same way I did back then or were there nuances which I could not appreciate at that age, both in positive and negative ways.

 

[Athlai]

Nobody wanted to boo him or see him as the bad guy. That's what caused the big downturn. A huge number of people just tuned out and never came back.

I always think this is overblown and that other major factors had as big an impact or bigger.

Death of WCW
Beginning of a more PG presentation.
Stone Cold Heel Turn to feud with no one in particular
Exodus of the Rock
The giant botching of the Invasion

 

[honestbharani]

I juz like to blame Triple H.

 

[Athlai]

Oh yeah he does deserve some of the blame, he should have been the babyface Stone Cold feuded with, but Hunter wanted to do the two man power trip instead and if there was ever going to be a turn to babyface from either of them there, it was ruined when he got injured.

 

[honestbharani]

Trips knew he could never be the #1 babyface over The Rock. He also knew the Austin heel turn will not last. Guess he played his cards right at that point, especially since I don't think he was married to Stephanie yet, so may not have been sure of his own standing had things gone south.

 

[Athlai]

HHH possibly could've been #1 baby face imo. At least if you think of a #1 baby face that isn't as over as The Rock, Cena or Stone Cold. He's probably close to the next best after that right?

I definitely think him feuding with heel stone cold would've been pretty good even if he should come up short as the baby face in that scenario.

They also somehow botched his baby face run when he was as over as The Rock or Stone Cold when he came back after his long injury in 2002 and people just wanted to cheer him. It only lasted five minutes but still. I think people sometimes forget how close to the top he was before it felt like he overstayed his welcome during the reign of terror.

(and tbf I for the most part enjoyed a lot of the reign of terror era, after all it gave us the now ruined Chris Benoit moment and made Randy Orton and Batista. It might not be the greatest time of WWE history but I'd take it every minute over the last few years).

 

[Niall]

I always think this is overblown and that other major factors had as big an impact or bigger.

Death of WCW
Beginning of a more PG presentation.
Stone Cold Heel Turn to feud with no one in particular
Exodus of the Rock
The giant botching of the Invasion

The Invasion angle was always doomed sadly ,,,even if they got everyone involved , it would have been a nightmare politically to keep everyone happy.

Coincidentally Hollywood Rock is probably his most enjoyable persona, probably did not draw as much money as a face but those promos.

 

[Kraken]

Fav 3 Mania matches:

1) Eddie vs Kurt Angle at Mania 20. Fantastic technical match between 2 of the all time greats, and a very creative finish to boot.

2) Kurt vs Brock at Mania 19. Anytime these guys went at it was absolute magic. Imagine IF that shooting star press had landed?!

3) Kofi vs DB at last years mania. The emotion, the build up for Kofi, the crowd and how hot they were...sure there have been better matches from a technical point, but this one was just must see in my opinion.

 

[honestbharani]

HHH possibly could've been #1 baby face imo. At least if you think of a #1 baby face that isn't as over as The Rock, Cena or Stone Cold. He's probably close to the next best after that right?

I definitely think him feuding with heel stone cold would've been pretty good even if he should come up short as the baby face in that scenario.

They also somehow botched his baby face run when he was as over as The Rock or Stone Cold when he came back after his long injury in 2002 and people just wanted to cheer him. It only lasted five minutes but still. I think people sometimes forget how close to the top he was before it felt like he overstayed his welcome during the reign of terror.

(and tbf I for the most part enjoyed a lot of the reign of terror era, after all it gave us the now ruined Chris Benoit moment and made Randy Orton and Batista. It might not be the greatest time of WWE history but I'd take it every minute over the last few years).

Oh yeah, Triple H was. I just don't think he had a successful face persona in him that was not DX. He always seems to struggle as his whole "cerebral assasin" gimmick is just made for heel runs. The 2002 thing should have worked but he turned heel on HBK coming back after everyone thinking he was done as a wrestler. The reign of terror may have given us new stars but its what made WWE fall from their heights and they have never recovered. I just think them trying to do a WCW and be a heel centric company, with Triple H and Brock, was absolutely stupid given how throughout their history, they made their dough with faces being the front and center.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

And not just persona, I don't think HHH was good enough in the ring (as a babyface) to pull off the #1 company face role. His face runs always seemed bland to me. I don't think he could have managed the level of performance and crowd investment in 01 that say Angle delivered at Summerslam and Unforgiven opposite Austin.

And nice picks Kraken. I agree that the DB-Kofi match from last year should go down as a classic.

I just think them trying to do a WCW and be a heel centric company, with Triple H and Brock, was absolutely stupid given how throughout their history, they made their dough with faces being the front and center.

And now it feels like they barely have either.

 

[sledger]

HHH was never "the guy", no matter how much he sometimes likes to pretend he was.

 

[Athlai]

He was “the guy” in 2004 after Lesnar left and until Cena became “the Guy” with a capital G in 2005.

Not ever on the level of the greatest to have that role (and imo not even as over as his own earlier peaks) but undeniably the biggest star in the company and “the guy”. Better than Diesel maybe? Would be generally interested in seeing a battle of “the guy” in WWFs history (maybe since WM 1?).

 

[Athlai]

“ The Guy” by PPV main event appearances (will list top 3 per year)

Points structure:
Main Event appearance and win = 1 point
Main Event appearance = 1/2 point
Wrestlemania Main Event appearance = 2 point
Wrestlemania Main Event appareance and win = 3 points
(Might also give Rumble Winners 2 points but only for 1990 and after, otherwise just 1 point, **** you Jim Duggan)

85: Hulk Hogan (and Mr T) 3, Roddy Piper and Paul Orndorff 2
86: (multiple main events year so just listing the winners) Hulk Hogan, the British Bulldogs, Mr T (Roddy lost by DQ) tied on 3. Hulk did go on last though.
87: Hulk Hogan 3.5, Andre the Giant 3, One man Gang, Rick Rude, King Kong Bundy and Butch Reed (who is butch reed? Survivor series only other POV this year btw and these guys were on Andres team) 1
88: Randy Savage 5, Ted DiBiase 3, Hulk Hogan 2
89: Hulk 5, Savage 3, beefcake 2
90: Hulk 4, Ultimate Warrior 4, Tito Santana 1 ( this is the highlight so far)

Will continue later

 

[Spikey]

dcye link me to the noah match

 

[honestbharani]

He was “the guy” in 2004 after Lesnar left and until Cena became “the Guy” with a capital G in 2005.

Not ever on the level of the greatest to have that role (and imo not even as over as his own earlier peaks) but undeniably the biggest star in the company and “the guy”. Better than Diesel maybe? Would be generally interested in seeing a battle of “the guy” in WWFs history (maybe since WM 1?).

But that was their problem in a nutshell, wasn't it? They spent late 2002 and all of 2003 burying everyone against Trips and Brock that they had no proper face to turn to, and with brand extension and Trips keeping himself away from Brock, the serious lack of faces that crowds can get behind led to their downfall.

 

[Kraken]

But that was their problem in a nutshell, wasn't it? They spent late 2002 and all of 2003 burying everyone against Trips and Brock that they had no proper face to turn to, and with brand extension and Trips keeping himself away from Brock, the serious lack of faces that crowds can get behind led to their downfall.

In regards to guys who fought Trips during that time, they absolutely should have pulled the trigger on RVD. And if not on him, definitely on Booker T, instead of that god-awful racist program we ended up getting. That isn't even mentioned how it took like 30 seconds for Trips to pin Booker after 1 ****ing pedigree?! one!? ffs.

 

[duffer]

In regards to guys who fought Trips during that time, they absolutely should have pulled the trigger on RVD. And if not on him, definitely on Booker T, instead of that god-awful racist program we ended up getting. That isn't even mentioned how it took like 30 seconds for Trips to pin Booker after 1 ****ing pedigree?! one!? ffs.

Finishers actually meant something back then tbh. Agree with your other points though.

 

[Athlai]

Is the booking Trips fault though?
Yes.

And can he be blamed for Vince not pulling the trigger on other hot acts?
Once again the answer is yes.

I like RVD and Booker T and think both were fine champions, but neither were ever #1 wwf guy material imo. And that isn’t to say they weren’t the most charismatic or most over at a given point in time, it’s that the WWF/WWE has a “style” in how it promotes matches. Hell even Jericho who accomplished 10x as much as either of them never quite reached the peak of WWE. Who Vince sees as “the guy” is “the guy”.

 

[Kraken]

Finishers actually meant something back then tbh. Agree with your other points though.

Oh man, I agree. I more meant it in how bloody long it took for the cover after. Way too long imo

 

[Kraken]

Is the booking Trips fault though?
Yes.

And can he be blamed for Vince not pulling the trigger on other hot acts?
Once again the answer is yes.

I like RVD and Booker T and think both were fine champions, but neither were ever #1 wwf guy material imo. And that isn’t to say they weren’t the most charismatic or most over at a given point in time, it’s that the WWF/WWE has a “style” in how it promotes matches. Hell even Jericho who accomplished 10x as much as either of them never quite reached the peak of WWE. Who Vince sees as “the guy” is “the guy”.

You definitely make a fair point. I'm just a huge RVD fan, and to me its criminal how he only ever got one shot at the top title. (Then of course ****ed it up getting caught with drugs, but I digress.)