***Official*** Pakistan in England

[Goughy]

Ummmm....becase Shane Warne isn't an offspiner? Doosra is a delivery that goes from leg to off, bowled using a similar action as other off spin deliveries. Leg spinners don't need the doosra because their deliveries already go from leg to off.

Yes but Monty is a left arm orthadox spinner so his normal ball goes from leg to off already. His Doosra would spin back into the batsman and would be far less effective than it spinning away as for the right arm offspinner.

 

[greg]

Ummmm....becase Shane Warne isn't an offspiner? Doosra is a delivery that goes from leg to off, bowled using a similar action as other off spin deliveries. Leg spinners don't need the doosra because their deliveries already go from leg to off.

Of all the possible responses to my slightly provocative post i hadn't expected that one!

 

[silentstriker]

Yes but Monty is a left arm orthadox spinner so his normal ball goes from leg to off already. His Doosra would spin back into the batsman and would be far less effective than it spinning away as for the right arm offspinner.

Yes, that is true...thats my fault, I forgot he was Left arm orthodox.

In any case, its not necessarily that its as effective on its own, but a lot of the dismissals would come from the suprise and the fact that its unexpected, more than the actual delivery.

 

[greg]

Yes, that is true...thats my fault, I forgot he was Left arm orthodox.

In any case, its not necessarily that its as effective on its own, but a lot of the dismissals would come from the suprise and the fact that its unexpected, more than the actual delivery.

What's that got to do with the comparison between Shane Warne and Monty? I don't think anyone is arguing that ANY bowler would be less effective with a doosra!

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yes but Monty is a left arm orthadox spinner so his normal ball goes from leg to off already. His Doosra would spin back into the batsman and would be far less effective than it spinning away as for the right arm offspinner.

Fair point actually. Do any left-arm orthodox spinners have one? I remember Jack saying he had experimented with one in the nets (to a chorus of "no-ball" from his team-mates, IIRC ) but I can't think of any international bowlers off the top of my head, whereas several offies have one (Murali, Saqlain, Harbhajan, Botha & even Loudon has the semblance of one).

It may or may not be coincidence that all of them (apart from Saqlain, as far as I know) have had their actions questioned to varying degrees.

 

[BoyBrumby]

What's that got to do with the comparison between Shane Warne and Monty? I don't think anyone is arguing that ANY bowler would be less effective with a doosra!

TBF tho a googly is a leggie's doosra.

Oh, I see what you're doing there....

 

[greg]

Fair point actually. Do any left-arm orthodox spinners have one? I remember Jack saying he had experimented with one in the nets (to a chorus of "no-ball" from his team-mates, IIRC ) but I can't think of any international bowlers off the top of my head, whereas several offies have one (Murali, Saqlain, Harbhajan, Botha & even Loudon has the semblance of one).

It may or may not be coincidence that all of them (apart from Saqlain, as far as I know) have had their actions questioned to varying degrees.

The simple answer is that the number of left arm orthodox spinners anywhere near test level can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

 

[greg]

TBF tho a googly is a leggie's doosra.

Oh, I see what you're doing there....

Not just a pretty face

 

[BoyBrumby]

The simple answer is that the number of left arm orthodox spinners anywhere near test level can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

True, but practically every offie seems to have some kind of doosra now. Only one (who's half-decent) who doesn't is Powar.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Err did you see some of the batting against Harmison?

Anyone can tell you who knows a bit about cricket that what ends up in that wicket column is a lot down to luck. The stumping and the Inzi wicket were lucky, a good few of the dismissals were simply rubbish shots (or leaves).

Best get those first-chance averages out again. Richard and Scaly agreeing, crikey.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Ummmm....becase Shane Warne isn't an offspiner? Doosra is a delivery that goes from leg to off, bowled using a similar action as other off spin deliveries. Leg spinners don't need the doosra because their deliveries already go from leg to off.

I think the point is more that Warne doesn't have much of a wrong'un, surely.

Warne does have a wrong'un, and he's bowling it quite a lot now and has been for the last year, but when he took 40 wickets in the Ashes he didn't bowl the wrong'un any more than once or twice a spell (and not very well either), and the flipper not at all. Compare that to in South Africa (for instance), where he had command of the wrong'un well enough that he bowled it more often than the standard leg-break in certain spells against the tail and left-handers, and had comparitively little success aside from one brilliant spell.

In other words, you don't need one that goes the other way to be a good spinner.

 

[greg]

I think the point is more that Warne doesn't have much of a wrong'un, surely.

Warne does have a wrong'un, and he's bowling it quite a lot now and has been for the last year, but when he took 40 wickets in the Ashes he didn't bowl the wrong'un any more than once or twice a spell (and not very well either), and the flipper not at all. Compare that to in South Africa (for instance), where he had command of the wrong'un well enough that he bowled it more often than the standard leg-break in certain spells against the tail and left-handers, and had comparitively little success aside from one brilliant spell.

In other words, you don't need one that goes the other way to be a good spinner.

Quite. The key to Warne's success last summer was his ability to bowl a big spinner. That is what creates uncertainty from which all the silly ways batsmen find to get themselves out follows. In the end he got most of his wickets with his arm ball (sorry "Slider"). What was different about Monty on Saturday compared with all English spinners of the last 20 years was his ability to bowl a big spinner. And he did it regularly usually in the first two balls of every over. Like Warne he experimented with changes of flight and pace to vary the extent of the ball spinning. And yes, he got wickets with his slider (sorry "Arm ball")

Don't take this to mean i am genuinely comparing Monty with one of the greatest bowlers in history. Rather i am using Warne in his post-flipper days to show that the fundamental ingredient for a successful spinner is the ability to, well, spin the ball.

 

[silentstriker]

I think the point is more that Warne doesn't have much of a wrong'un, surely.

Warne does have a wrong'un, and he's bowling it quite a lot now and has been for the last year, but when he took 40 wickets in the Ashes he didn't bowl the wrong'un any more than once or twice a spell (and not very well either), and the flipper not at all. Compare that to in South Africa (for instance), where he had command of the wrong'un well enough that he bowled it more often than the standard leg-break in certain spells against the tail and left-handers, and had comparitively little success aside from one brilliant spell.

In other words, you don't need one that goes the other way to be a good spinner.

If you are a leg spinner, probably not. But LA orthodox has less variety (traditionally), than a leg spinner. Plus the ball usually doesn't spin as much (how much does Panesar turn it?)

But no, you don't need it to be successful. I just said it would be a big addition to his arsenal if he can master it.

 

[BoyBrumby]

If you are a leg spinner, probably not. But LA orthodox has less variety (traditionally), than a leg spinner. Plus the ball usually doesn't spin as much (how much does Panesar turn it?)

But no, you don't need it to be successful. I just said it would be a big addition to his arsenal if he can master it.

About as much as any orthodox spinner I've seen for donkey's years. Because he does give it a real rip he tends to bowl quicker than most &, consequently, isn't as reliant on flight as finger spinners traditionally are.

 

[silentstriker]

About as much as any orthodox spinner I've seen for donkey's years. Because he does give it a real rip he tends to bowl quicker than most &, consequently, isn't as reliant on flight as finger spinners traditionally are.

Well, if he can spin it a long ways then thats a big part of his weakness solved. But LA orthodox spinners arsenal isn't as varied as leg spinners, so they would need anything they can get (including better use of crease and flight).

However, Shane Warnes' bowling is simple as hell and he's more effective than ever...so what the hell do I know?

 

[no1_gangsta_786]

Mohammed Asif looks to be back on track to play in the 4th test and with Shoaib Akhtar also looking likely to play in the 4th test, Pakistan may still have a chance in this series as long as they dont lose the 3rd test.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/5232580.stm

 

[Scaly piscine]

Well, if he can spin it a long ways then thats a big part of his weakness solved. But LA orthodox spinners arsenal isn't as varied as leg spinners, so they would need anything they can get (including better use of crease and flight).

However, Shane Warnes' bowling is simple as hell and he's more effective than ever...so what the hell do I know?

Warne gets a huge amount of top-spin when he wants and can turn it on anything - Panesar can't.

 

[wpdavid]

Cook now has 3 hundreds and, IIRC, is still only 21 (this next bit will look pretty silly if he's 22).

I'm trying to recall the last Englishman to make 3 test tons before his 22nd birthday. Gower had two, and May only one. Any other suggestions?

 

[Goughy]

If you are a leg spinner, probably not. But LA orthodox has less variety (traditionally), than a leg spinner. Plus the ball usually doesn't spin as much (how much does Panesar turn it?)

But no, you don't need it to be successful. I just said it would be a big addition to his arsenal if he can master it.

Monty is not a bad bowler but there is such an over reaction that is crazy to say the least.

He does turn it a bit but not massively and all this talk of him being the best since Underwood is a joke (Botham, newspapers etc).

People forget how good Tufnell was in the beginning of his career and look how that panned out. Monty is a long way from cementing his place in the side.

Monty has played 8 test. In Tufnells first 8 tests

After 8 tests Monty has 25 wickets @ 30.72
After 8 tests Tuffers had 35 @ 24.14 (which included his first 4 tests on a torrid and tough Ashes tour)

including some of the best spin bowling I had seen in years against the West Indies and in a match where he made New Zealand look like clowns.

http://rsa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1991/WI_IN_ENG/WI_ENG_T5_08-12AUG1991.html 158-3 to 176 all out.

http://rsa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1991-92/ENG_IN_NZ/ENG_NZ_T1_18-22JAN1992.html Watching him terrorize Wright and then have him stumped on 99 was incredible.

In the early days he was virtually unplayable due to his control, variation and turn.

Tufnells reputation has taken a battering over the years but if anyone watched him and truly remembered him in the early days he was not the fool he has been made out to be.

Tufnell had better flight than Monty, spun it more and better control.

Im trying to make 2 points.
a) Lets not overrate Panesar and think of him as a potential great and ignore others that have gone before.
b) Tufnell was a better spinner in the early days compared to Panesar now. Panesar has potential but that does not automatically translate to long term success. eg Tufnell.

8 tests proves little and there is a long way to go before English fans should get excited

There is too much euphoria about finding a decent spinner with potential. As I said, Ive seen it go sour for a better young bowler so I reserve my right to put a big 'LETS WAIT AND SEE' sign on my judgement of Monty.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Cook now has 3 hundreds and, IIRC, is still only 21 (this next bit will look pretty silly if he's 22).

I'm trying to recall the last Englishman to make 3 test tons before his 22nd birthday. Gower had two, and May only one. Any other suggestions?

I was thinking Beef, cos he started off with a bit of a bang, but after a trip to cricinfo it turns out he was nearly 22 on debut.

3 tons in his first 7 tests tho, just like the boy Cook, with a nice bit of statistical symmetry.