***Official*** Pakistan in England

[vic_orthdox]

Bowling Monty! Gets Younis with the arm ball. Not a very clever leave from him tho...

Funny, I thought he didn't have an arm ball...

 

[vic_orthdox]

The whole idea of spin bowling is to lure the batsmen into mistakes. So if you want to, you can write off 75% of a spin bowler's wickets as bad batting, and never acknowledge the bowler's input.

 

[UncleTheOne]

Squad same as before for England with the exception of Chris Read in for Geraint Jones. Apparently Jones has been dropped, not left out due to injury, down to his lack of runs according to Graveney.

 

[TT Boy]

Will Shoaib play in the next test? Will his inclusion bring a significant boost to the team?

You would think so but from all reports the fourth test seems the most likely chance for Shoaib.

 

[Scaly piscine]

The whole idea of spin bowling is to lure the batsmen into mistakes. So if you want to, you can write off 75% of a spin bowler's wickets as bad batting, and never acknowledge the bowler's input.

That's fine if you're up against Shahid Afridi or West Indies, but most of the time batsmen won't make those mistakes and that's why you've got Vettori averaging 35 and Giles 40. These mistakes are just as likely to come against someone else as they are a spinner anyway.

 

[Armadillo]

Jones dropped? Reasons given were for poor batting but his injury was disregarded. You would have thought Jones was on a high after his flawless performance with the gloves, needless dropping IMO, just lowering team spirit.

 

[silentstriker]

That's fine if you're up against Shahid Afridi or West Indies, but most of the time batsmen won't make those mistakes and that's why you've got Vettori averaging 35 and Giles 40. These mistakes are just as likely to come against someone else as they are a spinner anyway.

But he is potentially better than both.

 

[UncleTheOne]

Jones dropped? Reasons given were for poor batting but his injury was disregarded. You would have thought Jones was on a high after his flawless performance with the gloves, needless dropping IMO, just lowering team spirit.

Needless? The bloke can't buy a decent test score right now, he never learns from his mistakes eg. that bloody sweep shot of his, the guy simply isn't good enough with the bat at this level and despite his drastic improvements with the gloves he's still was off Chris Read behind the stumps.

 

[Dasa]

But he is potentially better than both.

A bowling average of ~23 at home in his (brief) career so far. How many bowlers can claim such stats?

 

[Scaly piscine]

But he is potentially better than both.

He's obviously better than Giles, but only potentially is he better than Vettori and even that is dubious.

Regardless his average will soon head back towards 35 when he stops getting so helpful pitches and even more helpful batsmen.

 

[silentstriker]

He's obviously better than Giles, but only potentially is he better than Vettori and even that is dubious.

Regardless his average will soon head back towards 35 when he stops getting so helpful pitches and even more helpful batsmen.

Maybe. He hasn't played enough for us to pass a judgement like that. You may be right, but his performance so far means he should at least be persisted with until we know more. I'm not saying he will average Muralis' 22 or Warnes' 25, but he may very well average a Harbhajan-like 29. Which, for the most part, is OK for a spinner, provided he can dominate games in the second innings on certain pitches. He needs to learn the Doosra, and if he does, I think he can be a world-class spinner. He has most of the other tools...but finger spinners need the doosra.

 

[marc71178]

That's fine if you're up against Shahid Afridi or West Indies, but most of the time batsmen won't make those mistakes and that's why you've got Vettori averaging 35 and Giles 40. These mistakes are just as likely to come against someone else as they are a spinner anyway.

So it was just a coincidence that they didn't then?

Just a fluke that Monty picked them up.

Precisely how much of his bowling did you see to write it off as luck?

 

[marc71178]

Regardless his average will soon head back towards 35 when he stops getting so helpful pitches and even more helpful batsmen.

Such a helpful pitch that Kaneria and Afridi had combined figures of 58-8-182-2.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Maybe. He hasn't played enough for us to pass a judgement like that. You may be right, but his performance so far means he should at least be persisted with until we know more. I'm not saying he will average Muralis' 22 or Warnes' 25, but he may very well average a Harbhajan-like 29. Which, for the most part, is OK for a spinner, provided he can dominate games in the second innings on certain pitches. He needs to learn the Doosra, and if he does, I think he can be a world-class spinner. He has most of the other tools...but finger spinners need the doosra.

But of course while he doesn't have a doosra and doesn't play home games in India then he's going to head towards 35...

 

[Scaly piscine]

So it was just a coincidence that they didn't then?

Just a fluke that Monty picked them up.

Precisely how much of his bowling did you see to write it off as luck?

Err did you see some of the batting against Harmison?

Anyone can tell you who knows a bit about cricket that what ends up in that wicket column is a lot down to luck. The stumping and the Inzi wicket were lucky, a good few of the dismissals were simply rubbish shots (or leaves).

 

[silentstriker]

But of course while he doesn't have a doosra and doesn't play home games in India then he's going to head towards 35...

English pitches in the second innings lately haven't been all that bad for spin....

 

[marc71178]

Err did you see some of the batting against Harmison?

Yes, I also saw his entire first day efforts, and how well he bowled to deserve the wickets, likewise I SAW Monty, rather than read about it and attacked him.

Anyone can tell you who knows a bit about cricket that what ends up in that wicket column is a lot down to luck. The stumping and the Inzi wicket were lucky, a good few of the dismissals were simply rubbish shots (or leaves).

Yes, and Jack made comments to that effect.

But as I said, how much of Monty did you SEE to make these comments?

 

[greg]

That's fine if you're up against Shahid Afridi or West Indies, but most of the time batsmen won't make those mistakes and that's why you've got Vettori averaging 35 and Giles 40. These mistakes are just as likely to come against someone else as they are a spinner anyway.

Collingwood's just unlucky, I guess

 

[greg]

But of course while he doesn't have a doosra and doesn't play home games in India then he's going to head towards 35...

Why does he need a doosra? Shane Warne doesn't have one.

 

[silentstriker]

Why does he need a doosra? Shane Warne doesn't have one.

Ummmm....becase Shane Warne isn't an offspiner? Doosra is a delivery that goes from leg to off, bowled using a similar action as other off spin deliveries. Leg spinners don't need the doosra because their deliveries already go from leg to off.