*Official** New Zealand in England

[tooextracool]

And the alleged useless Trescothick gets another fifty...

yes he certainly has proved that he can play against these military medium 80 mph merchants.....its no coincidence that gillespie and ntini have got him out 7 and 5 times respectively...while best and edwards got him out thrice each in the caribbean. spot the difference?

 

[anzac]

It's not strange though, you say he averages 20 in domestic when his home ground is a seamy pitch, that would show he cant play seam hense why he probably cant play it at international level either

the theory seems to be that he struggles when there is no / inconsistant pace in the pitch as opposed to having a problem with seam movement..........

he's averaging 41.3 after 15 ODI innings (with 5x50 & 1x100) & a SR of 75+. The first 5 ODIs were in PAK & the rest have been at Home v PAK & RSA........which are none too shabby seam attacks...........

his only Test innings is 40n.o. v RSA in RSA..............

so I can't see how you can theorise that he can't play seam at Int level yet........

 

[MoxPearl]

this is as flat a wicket you'll ever see....dont let the poor batting fool you, 500 was on the cards for NZ, before we saw some horrible strokes from the middle-lower order. perhaps we might see some uneven bounce in days 4 and 5 but thats not an excuse to make up for not scoring enough in the 1st innings.

lmao u have a comeback for every single thing ever said

 

[luckyeddie]

this is as flat a wicket you'll ever see....dont let the poor batting fool you, 500 was on the cards for NZ, before we saw some horrible strokes from the middle-lower order. perhaps we might see some uneven bounce in days 4 and 5 but thats not an excuse to make up for not scoring enough in the 1st innings.

This appears to be a quite typical Trent Bridge pitch of the last couple of years.

By tomorrow night, there could well be the odd one keeping very low. A bit of an 'Animal Farm' of a surface.

Three days good, two days bad.

 

[luckyeddie]

yes he certainly has proved that he can play against these military medium 80 mph merchants.....its no coincidence that gillespie and ntini have got him out 7 and 5 times respectively...while best and edwards got him out thrice each in the caribbean. spot the difference?

It was wonderful listening to Geoff Boycott commentating for an hour when Trescothick was batting - and the times he said "Shot" or "World Class".

 

[luckyeddie]

lmao u have a comeback for every single thing ever said

He doesn't.

He just re-cycles the same ones over and over again.

Uses his toilet paper both sides too.

 

[anzac]

so far as possible options for future NZL batting lineups goes..........

I've just had a quick squiz at the batting performances by current & recent players in each Country re different conditions etc - makes for some interesting viewing...............

I'm sure the selectors go thru' the same info, but all I can say is that some of the players would seem to have some very different strengths & weaknesses - thus giving rise to my theory of a 'horses for cources' squad based upon fitness, form, country hosting the series & type of opposition attack..............

eg Vincent performs better on the quicker & bouncier wickets than he does at home, & Sinclair is similar while McMillan is the opposite - likes it slower & lower.....doesn't have a good record in ENG but does well in NZL & IND......

perhaps the selectors should look at how the players perform on the different type of NZL pitches when considering their squads for future series.......could be a reason for 2 - 3 batting changes in the squad for series venues.........

 

[Loony BoB]

Before this series we were told how great the depth of the New Zealand batting was...

And it does go deep - eight of our players have scored at least 50 on this tour and Vettori managed 42, McMillan hasn't fired either. Tuffey even managed 14* So yeah, we have no troubles in depth, it's just that we consistently fail in one or two areas of the order. The odds of top, middle and lower order all performing are low, let alone two of them. But they all can, and that's what depth is all about. Consistency is another story (pre-Richardson: The only thing consistent about NZ's batting order is that the openers always fail).

 

[Loony BoB]

oh dear...............

congrads to Styris on regaining some form with his ton, but after that not a lot of contribution from the lower order & tail (harks back to previous comments made re inconsistency of 'allrounder' type lower orders )...............

I remarked yesterday that I thought NZL would need to target 500 in their 1st innings primarily because of their bowling attack probs - now out below 400 & 2 bowlers down & no spinner to hold up and end - how much will NZL miss those extra runs?????????

not a bad bowling effort from Cairns & Franklin, but they are going to need BIIIG help from the likes of Oram & Styris to be able to keep going - BIIG danger of being buggered by the 2nd innings & ENG batsmen walk away with it.............

nice to have 5 ENG wickets in the bag but with Jones yet to come & the form he's shown this series NZL are not out of the woods yet...........& still another 15 wickets to go...........

if the ENG batsmen remain patient they should be able to win this walking away as at Headingly........

NZL will do well if they can hold out for a draw & IMO they must firstly hope that ENG do not post much of a lead, bat for as long as they can in their 2nd innings, & finally hope ENG have some sort of a total to chase & loose some early wickets...........

Good God, man, that has to be one of the best shows of pessimism I've seen in a long time. xD We're actually slightly ahead of the game for once (and actually getting the opposition out, heaven forbid) and you go on and say we'll be lucky for a draw... whose side are you on? Or are you just painting a bad picture so you can only look good for prediction or happy for country? Don't blame ya if you're staying safe, but c'mon... if we're ahead, you say "yay, I hope we keep the lead and win it" not "ooer, I wonder if we can manage a draw?" ya goof.

EDIT: As for "Oh, but we've been here before and we lost it..." ordeals: Hey, if you can't be happy because your team don't win matches, be happy when they win days and sessions, I say. That's sport - sing when you're winning.

 

[Kent]

Although one of tooextra's "80 mph merchants", I was quite impressed with Franklin's return. Considering the almighty talent pool of Australia were excited about Nathan Bracken, when you add the fact that Franklin is scoring f/c tons I think he has a very strong claim to be persisted with now.

The only question I have is whose spot is he more likely to take long-term - Cairns', Tuffey's, Martin's or Vettori's?

I have no doubt that Fleming would've turned to Vettori for an extended spell when Vaughan and Trescothick were looking flash. In other words, you could form an argument that England may've been 200/2 at stumps with Vettori having 20 overs to his name, rather than 225/5 with 0 to his name.

Perhaps picking 7 medium-pacers is a good tactic for NZ? The law of averages says at least 2 or 3 of them will be fit and having a decent day with their swing/accuracy/slower ball!

 

[marc71178]

Honours even? I'd give the day to NZ if we hadn't lost 2 bowlers (Martin & Mills).

I'd say it's very much even, and bizarrely feel Hoggard could be the key man with the bat.

 

[luckyeddie]

EDIT: As for "Oh, but we've been here before and we lost it..." ordeals: Hey, if you can't be happy because your team don't win matches, be happy when they win days and sessions, I say. That's sport - sing when you're winning.

Darned right, Bob.

Back in the early 1980's, when I realised that my team Derby County would in all likelihood never regain their rightful place as greatest team in England, let alone on Earth, we used to sing a little ditty on Wheildon's bus to away matches:

"Sing when we're winning,
we laugh and joke when we're losing.
We're always laughing and joking...."

Perhaps you had to be there.

 

[Langeveldt]

yes he certainly has proved that he can play against these military medium 80 mph merchants.....its no coincidence that gillespie and ntini have got him out 7 and 5 times respectively...while best and edwards got him out thrice each in the caribbean. spot the difference?

But arent all cricketers supposed to be less potent against better bowlers??

Thats the whole reason they are good bowlers!?

 

[luckyeddie]

But arent all cricketers supposed to be less potent against better bowlers??

Thats the whole reason they are good bowlers!?

The thing is, even if TEC is right, so are the rest of us.

Why should a player be criticised for being whatever type of bully? After all, he's doing something better than anyone else can do (otherwise you wouldn't have noticed). Trescothick might not be a Boyks, he might well murder medium pacers and he might well be brilliant at the Oval - but if he does that better than 'classier' players, it still makes him one of the best in the world in that particular activity.

Similarly with the justifiable fuss over Spearman, slaughtering WG's record today. Now there IS a FTB for you, but look in the record books tomorrow and see if it says (bully) against his name.

 

[Langeveldt]

The thing is, even if TEC is right, so are the rest of us.

Why should a player be criticised for being whatever type of bully? After all, he's doing something better than anyone else can do (otherwise you wouldn't have noticed). Trescothick might not be a Boyks, he might well murder medium pacers and he might well be brilliant at the Oval - but if he does that better than 'classier' players, it still makes him one of the best in the world in that particular activity.

Similarly with the justifiable fuss over Spearman, slaughtering WG's record today. Now there IS a FTB for you, but look in the record books tomorrow and see if it says (bully) against his name.

One of the reasons I think guys like Neil McKenzie should be criticized... Its all very well scoring some runs in really testing circumstances, but if you fail when the going is easy, well you should come open to criticizm.. (And a laugh because you won't bat unless all the toilet seats in the changing room are correct)

 

[luckyeddie]

One of the reasons I think guys like Neil McKenzie should be criticized... Its all very well scoring some runs in really testing circumstances, but if you fail when the going is easy, well you should come open to criticizm.. (And a laugh because you won't bat unless all the toilet seats in the changing room are correct)

The last one is as good a reason as any.

I know a few sportsmen and they are INSANE when it comes to stupidstitions.

Not me, though.

Apart from the fact that, when I play for The Crickets in the Friday night league at Nottingham I always wear my B&P Fabrications sponsored bowling shirt (despite the fact they don't sponsor me in that league), put my right sock on before my left yet reverse the sequence when it comes to putting my bowling shoes on, always wear a blue soaker under my wrist support, throw three practice shots on the left-hand lane (the first at the 10-pin, the second at the 7-pin and the third at the 'pocket' yet when I come to practice on the right hand lane I throw a practice ball at the 1-2 pocket before tackling the corner pins, then I sit down and clean my spare ball before wiping any of my reactive bowling balls, then I remove my right shoe and 'scrub' the sole with a wire brush to ensure a really good slide before putting the shoe on and continuing to practice, never putting my towel on the ball-return but draping it over the back of the nearest seat to the approaches on the lane on which I will be bowling my first real shot of the night, and finally ensuring that there are three ice cubes in my glass of orange squash.

You can see the difference, can't you?

 

[marc71178]

I just run up and chuck it.

 

[badgerhair]

The thing is, even if TEC is right, so are the rest of us.

Why should a player be criticised for being whatever type of bully? After all, he's doing something better than anyone else can do (otherwise you wouldn't have noticed). Trescothick might not be a Boyks, he might well murder medium pacers and he might well be brilliant at the Oval - but if he does that better than 'classier' players, it still makes him one of the best in the world in that particular activity.

Similarly with the justifiable fuss over Spearman, slaughtering WG's record today. Now there IS a FTB for you, but look in the record books tomorrow and see if it says (bully) against his name.

It's not so much criticism as a worry.

What the Trescosceptics have in mind (well, this one, anyway) is that the real point of all this is whether we can pick a team that can beat Australia.

Butcher's currently having a rotten series, but it's the first one he's had for three years, so he's allowed.

Tresco, though, has good series, when he averages 60, and bad ones, when he averages 25. The bad ones involve *fast* bowlers. Australia possess one of the bowlers who has got him out *a lot* for not very much.

The formbook leads one to predict that it is a stone-cold certainty that Tresco will average 25 rather than 60 against Australia, in other words just when we will probably need every run we can get, he won't be coming to the party. That's the concern, and what he does against 80mph-and-lower dobbers doesn't give us much evidence either way.

However, since the next nine Tests England plays are against the other pace bowlers who have made Tresco miserable in recent times, he has plenty of opportunity to demonstrate either that he has found a way of avoiding the dab to gully or that he should be dropped before he does any damage in the Ashes.

I'd much rather he showed he can play pace bowling without wafting to third slip than get dropped - I'd like to keep him in the side. But I also want to win the Ashes.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[badgerhair]

I just run up and chuck it.

Did you forget the quote marks and the attribution to Kylie Mills?

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Kent]

no McCullum??????

and based upon this season I'd go...........
Richardson (even tho' I question his place re 'advance the game' theory);
Styris;
Fleming;
Oram;
McCullum;
Marshall;

I did say specialist batsmen! Oram and McCullum are kind of irrelevant to Macca's fate, seeing they will be there anyway for their other roles.

If you want my pecking order of all NZ batting, it would be something like...

1. Flem (highly influential whether it's Colombo or Capetown. Ditto for ODIs.)
2. Rigger (an excellent test opener)
3. Astle (not reliable, but a proven strokemaker against good attacks)
4. Styris (4 tons of 15 tests.)
5. Oram (great early stats, visually suggests he can build on them.)

Best under 25:

1. McCullum
2. Papps
3. Hamish Marshall
4. Peter Fulton
5. Ross Taylor
6. Jamie How


This is what Macca has to be worried about. If there was such a thing as an under-25 World Cup (in either form of the game), NZ would be sending a very good batting side. Fleming is well aware of this, and has said he doesn't want to see any of them thrown through the door just as he's walking out.

It was interesting to hear Flem say in places like England it's less of an issue (this was months before Strauss came in, but it backs up his judgement), however spending your 20's as a batsman in NZ domestic cricket "is far from ideal".