*Official* New Zealand in Bangladesh Thread

[bryce]

and certainly not re your tactics for the series - stack the batting & play for draws..............IMO that's the very mistake so many sides make v AUS - they go into the series already on the back foot.................

better to have your own game plan to win and then take it to them IMO..............

i didn't mean to play from for a draw from the outset, the idea more was to try and get in a position where you can win at on days 2/3 and if that does not happen at least you have the batting resources to play out a draw.

if Oram & Franklin can keep it tight, then Butler could be useful by being in their faces (like he did in ENG) - even if he does conceed runs - just as that's Lee's job for AUS & Harmison's for ENG

first of all, no one has a job description to concede runs !
but i know what you mean its just they are more attacking bowlers and tend to pitch it up more in order to try and take wickets - and this is true to butler & lee but harmison is not in that category he has a test runs per over of 2.94 and he normally concentrates on bowling back of a length to extract the bounce he produces, where as ian butler is what brett lee has turned into now(also possibly the type of bowler you would least want on your team) a run conceding non-wicket taker !

since 2002 brett lee has got 67 wickets@39.40 and a runs per over of 3.77
in ian butlers whole career he has 24 wickets@36.83 and a runs per over of 3.87.
minus his 'out of the hat' 6/46 and he has 18 wickets@46.55 & around about the same runs per over.

 

[Macka]

I don't think Butler should be bowling against the Aussies, it's a pity Chris Martin didn't get a game against Bangladesh. Hopefully Fulton will be given a go during the ODI series.

 

[Tim]

My side for the 1st ODI:

Astle
McCullum
Marshall
Styris
Fulton
Cairns
Harris
Vettori
Franklin
Adams
Mills

But I'd expect that Bracewell & co will opt for McMillan over Fulton.

 

[Tim]

One thing im extremely happy to be seeing is that nearly all the new batsmen coming into the test side are averaging 40+.

Styris, Oram, McCullum have all started really well & have scored runs consistently to suggest their averages aren't inflated by a series of not-outs.

 

[Mingster]

but i know what you mean its just they are more attacking bowlers and tend to pitch it up more in order to try and take wickets - and this is true to butler

Ian Butler does not try to "pitch it up" to take wickets, his normally bowls at short of a length, which is very easy to play against on flat decks. Unless he learns how to swing (new ball or reverse) the ball, he will be useless pitching the ball up. Butler rarely bowls full anyway.

Mills is a swing bowler who bowls at about the same sort of pace as Martin & is generally quicker than the likes of Oram, Tuffey & Franklin...........

Chris Martin suprised me on the English Tour, he bowled in the high 130s against South Africa, but was only in the high 120s against England. It's a shame that ESPN-Star don't have a speedometer, because it would interesting to see what kind of pace Oram and Franklin were bowling. In a perfect world, you would want to see both of them bowling over 135 without losing much accuracy to make them more penetrative bowlers.

My XI for the 1st ODI:

1 Astle, 2 Sinclair, 3 Marshall, 4 Styris, 5 Fulton, 6 Cairns, 7 McCullum+, 8 Adams, 9 Vettori (c), 10 Franklin, 11 Butler

I wouldn't favour McCullum to open at this stage, because our middle-to-lower order would weaken with his departure. We need a player like him at 6 or 7 (not 8) to break up the "big hitters" of Styris, Cairns, Adams and co. Fulton should play, otherwise it would defeat the whole purpose of bringing him over to Bangladesh in the first place.

 

[Tim]

Sinclair won't play the first ODI due to injury.

 

[southern man]

Then let McCullum open, bring in Macca.

 

[bryce]

Ian Butler does not try to "pitch it up" to take wickets, his normally bowls at short of a length, which is very easy to play against on flat decks. Unless he learns how to swing (new ball or reverse) the ball, he will be useless pitching the ball up. Butler rarely bowls full anyway.

your right he does not bowl full that much but he still does occasionally, that is where all of his runs come from everytime he pitches it up he gets hit for four.
mccullum may open the innings, new zealand selectors have always had a thing with 'keepers opening in odi's and i've got a feeling mccullum is being groomed for this very role.

 

[anzac]

mccullum may open the innings, new zealand selectors have always had a thing with 'keepers opening in odi's and i've got a feeling mccullum is being groomed for this very role.

that's where he started in 2002 when he came into the ODI side...........

my guess is that with Sinclair out then he'll have to open as there is no one esle to do so..............

and I fail to see what brining Macca into the side is going to achieve - it's not as if we are going to need his presence in order to defeat BAN (I mean no disrespect to the BAN team, just that Macca is no Lara or Tendulkar so far as his contribution to the side is concerned)..............

I'd rather they use the opportunity to play Fulton..............

 

[anzac]

i didn't mean to play from for a draw from the outset, the idea more was to try and get in a position where you can win at on days 2/3 and if that does not happen at least you have the batting resources to play out a draw.

fair enough..............however IMO it sails perilously close to the old tactic of "let's not loose this match first b4 we look to try & win it.........."

 

[anzac]

first of all, no one has a job description to concede runs !
but i know what you mean its just they are more attacking bowlers and tend to pitch it up more in order to try and take wickets - and this is true to butler & lee but harmison is not in that category he has a test runs per over of 2.94 and he normally concentrates on bowling back of a length to extract the bounce he produces, where as ian butler is what brett lee has turned into now(also possibly the type of bowler you would least want on your team) a run conceding non-wicket taker !

since 2002 brett lee has got 67 wickets@39.40 and a runs per over of 3.77
in ian butlers whole career he has 24 wickets@36.83 and a runs per over of 3.87.
minus his 'out of the hat' 6/46 and he has 18 wickets@46.55 & around about the same runs per over.

I wasn't suggesting that anyone had a job description to conceed runs...........rather that their role is to INTIMIDATE the batsman by bowling back of a length & into them - as a consequence they will go for a few boundaries as there is a very small margin for error.............

this tactic isn't so much designed to take wickets in it's self, as most batsmen at this level should be able to deal with short pitched deliveries, rather it's purpose is to unsettle the batsman for when he faces genuine wicket taking deliveries from the 'strike' bowlers/s at the other end...........again it's a fine line...........

 

[anzac]

Chris Martin suprised me on the English Tour, he bowled in the high 130s against South Africa, but was only in the high 120s against England. It's a shame that ESPN-Star don't have a speedometer, because it would interesting to see what kind of pace Oram and Franklin were bowling. In a perfect world, you would want to see both of them bowling over 135 without losing much accuracy to make them more penetrative bowlers.

last I saw in NZL v RSA etc both Mills & Martin were bowling mid - high 130kph range, whereas Tuffey, Oram & Franklin tend to be around the low - mid 130's.........

I'm convinced that Martin does NOT like the Duke ball, and his confidence has suffered greatly on the ENG tour...............I seem to remember reading a comment from him after the RSA series in which he said that he was very much a confidence player, and that he had been working on trying to strengthen that aspect of his game...........or something along those lines.....

either way IMO he is still one of the few genuine 'strike' bowling seam options we have at this stage...............

 

[anzac]

The problem with Mills is his swing only goes one way and comes early from the hand, meaning good batsmen follow the shape and play it with ease.



Well it's only a 2 test series, so I don't really have a problem with picking a player with just one venue in mind. I do have a problem with how many times Hayden, Martyn, Gilchrist etc. might loft Wiseman over the short square boundaries in Adelaide though!

Perhaps that's Bracewell's cunning plan to get them slogging across the line.

good point re Mills..............but as I said - few other options available atm..........

so far as the venue goes I'd understand if we were talking about the SCG of old, but not Adelaide....................I may be wrong but I don't think of Adeliade as an "offie's" ground, rather a "wristies" or maybe a SLA..............

 

[Kent]

I heard Bracewell say he'll open with Fulton, which is interesting.

I think the URL for the full interview would be something like this -

http://www.radiosport.co.nz/ThisWeek/20700.wma (about 10 min in)
http://www.radiosport.co.nz/ThisWeek/20715.wma

 

[Macka]

Has Fulton opened in domestic cricket? I thought he was a #3 myself. Great to see him get a game, he is actually one NZ cricketer who deserves to play international cricket with his domestic record.

Pity to read about the NZ team snobing the media in Bangladesh. Taking the team bus to a restaurant 100 yards away? It's a shame they're not making themselves available. Poor form.

 

[Kent]

No, I don't think Fulton has opened. Even batting out of position, I think he'll be thrilled to join Astle and perhaps relish the first 15 against Bangladesh.

Interesting that Bracewell also confirmed in that interview that Marshall will be retained for the Aussie test tour, with the squad apparently being named today -

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3082388a10133,00.html

01 November 2004
By JONATHAN MILLMOW

A New Zealand side tragically light on bowling is expected to be named today for the tour of Australia.


With Shane Bond and Daryl Tuffey missing because of injury, the national selectors have little option but to include a second spinner in Paul Wiseman - even though his prospects of playing in either of the tests are remote.

The 14-man squad should be identical to the side that ruthlessly dismantled Bangladesh, meaning the pace bowling quartet will be James Franklin, Chris Martin, Ian Butler and Kyle Mills.

They, of course, will be held together by the rocks on which New Zealand now rely so much - left-arm spinner Daniel Vettori and allrounder Jacob Oram.

Two spinners is a luxury for such a short test tour - a four-day warmup match against New South Wales starting on November 11 followed by tests at the Gabba in Brisbane and the Adelaide Oval.

New Zealand's pace bowling reserves are light, however, with the next two options, Kerry Walmsley and Michael Mason, slightly below top level and the tour two years too soon for Richard Sherlock.

Wiseman will not be in the frame for Brisbane but he could come up in discussions before the second test in Adelaide, which is traditionally a very flat wicket.

The concern would be the size of the side-on boundaries: a mistimed sweep can find its way into the car park.

But one thing the selectors cannot be accused of is not covering their options. At least they would have a spinner close at hand if Vettori was to roll his ankle in warmups on the morning of one of the tests. Nor could the selectors be accused of being slow learners, after their decision to take just one spinner to England last winter was horribly exposed.

There is some history of playing two spinners at Adelaide and on the 1987 tour New Zealand included three, with current coach John Bracewell supported by Evan Gray and Dipak Patel. It was hardly a roaring success, however, with a combined return of 2-233.

Australia have used Tim May alongside Shane Warne and before the champion legspinner emerged May was partnered by Peter Sleep. But none of their returns have been overly flash. Warne has captured 41 wickets at 28.97 in 10 tests at Adelaide and May had 15 scalps at 29.13 from four tests.

The only other area the selectors would have debated is the opening role, where Mathew Sinclair potentially faced a challenge from Michael Papps.

The Canterbury opener, who dislocated his shoulder on the eve of the team's departure for Bangladesh, returned to action only on Saturday, however, and unfortunately spent the entire day in the field for his club East Christchurch-Shirley.

Tuffey ruled himself out last week, telling The Dominion Post on Thursday that the tour had come around too quickly after recent leg problems.

"My gut feeling is the tests against Australia aren't realistic, but I might be a shot at the one-dayers later on," Tuffey said. "I haven't had the bowling and it would be silly to think I could go in against a side like Australia with no work behind me."

Likely New Zealand 14: Stephen Fleming (captain), Nathan Astle, Ian Butler, James Franklin, Hamish Marshall, Chris Martin, Brendon McCullum, Kyle Mills, Jacob Oram, Mathew Sinclair, Mark Richardson, Scott Styris, Daniel Vettori and Paul Wiseman.

 

[Mingster]

Fulton opening doesn't bother me, not much difference, only Bangladesh bowlers. More importantly is that he's getting gametime.

 

[Kent]

"two years too soon for Richard Sherlock".

Careful there JM - you know what Hadlee did with Butler when he was younger and even less proven than Sherlock!

 

[Mingster]

Surely they won't risk Sherlock now? Unless he is faster than Butler by several yards, he should not be considerd.

But seriously though, Sherlock is still unproven and has only had a handful of FC games.

 

[Kent]

No, I doubt Bracewell will do it. If Hadlee was still head selector, I wouldn't have ruled it out.