***Official*** New Zealand in Australia 2011

[wellAlbidarned]

Looks like Ryder is managing with the new runner rule pretty well then.

 

[NUFAN]

I really don't see the significance of your point about Copeland's strike rate NUFAN. For one, the differences are seriously marginal between Copeland, Pattinson and Starc. But regardless, it's test cricket, having a relatively high SR is not going to impact much on your success because there isn't much of a time constraint. Admittedly it's often good to have more attacking options (i.e. balance in the attack) in certain situations like quickly getting rid of the tail, or taking advantage of a momentum shift in the game, but on the whole it really doesn't matter that much. Easily the most important thing is being able to take wickets for few runs (i.e. the average of the bowler) regardless of how many balls they have to bowl (within reason). Take a look at Shaun Pollock's SR, how did his career fare?

It was only a minor point to illustrate that Copeland doesn't have everything going for him so far in his First Class career.

Shaun Pollock's career fared extremely well. How was Arjuna Ranatunga's Test bowling career?

The average of a bowler in Test Cricket is very important obviously. What do you expect Copeland to average in Test Cricket? Does he have enough tools to get wickets in Test match conditions as frequently or near to what he does in First Class Cricket? If so, which performances have made you have this opinion?

What do Starc, Cutting, Pattinson, Siddle, Cummins etc. need to average for the Copeland non selection to be considered the right one?

Did Copeland's short Test career enhance his reputation in your eyes? Do you think he performed better than his 37.83 average?

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

Taylor mentioned before the tour started how he believed they always got warm-up games in Brisbane to tire them out a bit before the series started. Spending days in the field in the hot sun. I'm just wondering whether it is all "You can't tire us out if we just keep on batting and batting and batting and batting and batting".

Would giving the bowlers 15 odd overs on this track have any real benefits? I'm sure David Warner would like a little hit out against the team he will be facing on debut.

I don't really mind it.

 

[NUFAN]

For the 2nd Test, bring Watson, Cummins and Marsh back from injury and Wade in for Haddin and this would be one of the youngest Australian sides for a long time...maybe since 1978 when WSC split the teams?

Hughes (22)
Warner (25)
Marsh (28)
Khawaja (24)
Clarke (30)
Watson (30)
Wade (23)
Cutting (24) or Starc (21)
Pattinson (21)
Cummins (18)
Lyon (24)

Are they all likely to be fit? Now that Ponting is playing the First Test, I definitely want him to play the second Test at his home ground.

Congrats to Ryder too, sounds like an awesome innings, NZ are a really exciting team at the moment.

 

[Days of Grace]

Martin on his best form ever will go for 2-80 off 18 overs against Australia.

An undercooked Martin will go for 0-110 off 16.

 

[NUFAN]

Taylor mentioned before the tour started how he believed they always got warm-up games in Brisbane to tire them out a bit before the series started. Spending days in the field in the hot sun. I'm just wondering whether it is all "You can't tire us out if we just keep on batting and batting and batting and batting and batting".

Would giving the bowlers 15 odd overs on this track have any real benefits? I'm sure David Warner would like a little hit out against the team he will be facing on debut.

I don't really mind it.

I would definitely do it. Hopefully for NZ's sake Young can stay in for those 15 or so overs and then declare. There wont be much to gain, I actually wonder if Warner would open?

 

[Flem274*]

Keep them out there and crush their bowlers before the tests even begin.

 

[Athlai]

Ryder is now tied with Symonds for the record of most sixes in a first class innings.

Oh and tied with Graham Napier too who also scored 16 this year.

 

[Athlai]

Keep them out there and crush their bowlers before the tests even begin.

They're only bowling their **** spinners and the part-timers now.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

See how long they will bowl their non-bowlers then. They don't have enough subs to take all their fast bowlers of the field. Let them stand in the field for another hour.

I'd rather Brownlie and Young got some time on a flat pitch, than Warner or another Aussie doing so.

 

[Athlai]

They actually bowled Pattinson straight after the break ITSTL.

 

[Ruckus]

It was only a minor point to illustrate that Copeland doesn't have everything going for him so far in his First Class career.

Shaun Pollock's career fared extremely well. How was Arjuna Ranatunga's Test bowling career?

The average of a bowler in Test Cricket is very important obviously. What do you expect Copeland to average in Test Cricket? Does he have enough tools to get wickets in Test match conditions as frequently or near to what he does in First Class Cricket? If so, which performances have made you have this opinion?

What do Starc, Cutting, Pattinson, Siddle, Cummins etc. need to average for the Copeland non selection to be considered the right one?

Did Copeland's short Test career enhance his reputation in your eyes? Do you think he performed better than his 37.83 average?

Your example of Ranatunga shows me your not really getting my point. I can find countless examples of players with poor SR's and excellent SR's who have had good or bad careers. That's essentially what I'm saying; for the most part something like that doesn't really matter in test cricket, and at the end of the day, it comes down to the individual. I have no specific answer to your questions about what Copeland will average etc. All I will say is this: I do believe he has the tools to perform well in test cricket. I have seen him bowl many times and I think the lateral movement he can get with the ball and his immense accuracy/consistency would be enough to succeed despite deficits in pace. He has to used correctly though. It's very important he is allowed to bowl long spells because that's where his strength's lie, in building pressure. I don't think he bowled exceptionally in Sri Lanka, but he bowled well and succeeded in his main role. It was by no means the easiest conditions to debut anyway (think he would have enjoyed much more success in SA), but he was actually probably unlucky not to get more wickets. There were a few contentious lbw decisions and there might have been a dropped catch too, I can't really remember though. The bottom line is he by no means performed in a way which weakened his reputation, and he didn't deserve to dropped. There were more positives than negative there for me. Starc et al. simply need to polish their games and peform better in shield cricket to deserve selection as far as I'm concerned. We don't need someone who leaks 3.50 runs an over at this stage, and who doesn't even take many wickets to compensate. If they prove they have consistency and can take wickets as well as other contenders then by all means I'm happy for their inclusion. But the reality is they atm they don't.

 

[BeeGee]

They actually bowled Pattinson straight after the break ITSTL.

They bowled the crap bowlers to help push the declaration, but now that the declaration hasn't come they're back to their main bowlers trying to bowl us out.

 

[Spikey]

Ricky Ponting out
Kurtis Patterson in

 

[NUFAN]

Your example of Ranatunga shows me your not really getting my point. I can find countless examples of players with poor SR's and excellent SR's who have had good or bad careers. That's essentially what I'm saying; for the most part something like that doesn't really matter in test cricket, and at the end of the day, it comes down to the individual. I have no specific answer to your questions about what Copeland will average etc. All I will say is this: I do believe he has the tools to perform well in test cricket. I have seen him bowl many times and I think the lateral movement he can get with the ball and his immense accuracy/consistency would be enough to succeed despite deficits in pace. He has to used correctly though. It's very important he is allowed to bowl long spells because that's where his strength's lie, in building pressure. I don't think he bowled exceptionally in Sri Lanka, but he bowled well and succeeded in his main role. It was by no means the easiest conditions to debut anyway (think he would have enjoyed much more success in SA), but he was actually probably unlucky not to get more wickets. There were a few contentious lbw decisions and there might have been a dropped catch too, I can't really remember though. The bottom line is he by no means performed in a way which weakened his reputation, and he didn't deserve to dropped. There were more positives than negative there for me. Starc et al. simply need to polish their games and peform better in shield cricket to deserve selection as far as I'm concerned. We don't need someone who leaks 3.50 runs an over at this stage, and who doesn't even take many wickets to compensate. If they prove they have consistency and can take wickets as well as other contenders then by all means I'm happy for their inclusion. But the reality is they atm they don't.

I had written a post, but it didn't work, what I basically said was..

I only mentioned Ranatunga because I figured Pollock was a random successful player who's record doesn't have any relevance to Trent Copeland's.

That's completely fair enough that you think he has all the necessary tools. I don't see it, although I'm not saying he would completely disgrace himself either.

I don't recall any LBW's/dropped catches off Copeland's bowling in the SL series either.. I do however remember two absolute screamers from Hussey and Clarke that on another day wouldn't have been taken.

Can a mod start up a Copeland thread and possibly move some of this discussion into it as I'm sure before/during the Test series we'll have more discussion on it!

 

[_Ed_]

50 for Brownlie. Good knock.

 

[BeeGee]

50 for Brownlie, All the batsmen getting good time in the middle.

Bracewell making a case for promotion ahead of Young.

 

[Zinzan]

50 for Brownlie, All the batsmen getting good time in the middle.

Bracewell making a case for promotion ahead of Young.

Nah Young's a fairly handy no. 8 when you consider he has 6 FC tons & averages over 30

 

[Jono]

Taylor mentioned before the tour started how he believed they always got warm-up games in Brisbane to tire them out a bit before the series started. Spending days in the field in the hot sun. I'm just wondering whether it is all "You can't tire us out if we just keep on batting and batting and batting and batting and batting".

Would giving the bowlers 15 odd overs on this track have any real benefits? I'm sure David Warner would like a little hit out against the team he will be facing on debut.

I don't really mind it.

Very good post.

I think this is brilliant from NZ personally.

 

[Nate]

To the Copeland fans/everyone, what type of Test Cricketer would you expect him to be if given the opportunity? Would he have a high wickets per match rate in Test Cricket? Would his economy rate be superb? What do you think he would potentially average?

Obviously ridiculously hard to tell.

He is a superb new-ball bowler, it is obviously his strength. He almost always succeeds when conditions are helpful.

Then, when the ball is older, he can get reverse, or when it's not moving, his stump-to-stump line ensures control while making the batsmen play.

Also, he never, ever gets tonked. Not only is this helpful from Copeland's pov, it builds pressure for the bowler at the other end too.

He made his debut against a good batting side on some of the flattest wickets in the world, and came out of it with key wickets and a sensational economy rate.

Clark, McGrath, Pollock, etc were so valuable in Test Cricket was because of the reasons above.

We used to play cricket this way!