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**Official** England in The West Indies

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
marc71178 said:
This is Rik - he's long campaigned against Harmison's place in the England side.

Those of us who've all along said to back the selectors, as maybe they know what they're talking about, are now sitting here quite happy.
And this is Marc, take a bow. When the West Indies collapse like a pack of cards, he's here to claim it was all due to amazing bowling, from the commentry off a radio...nothing like getting carried away in the hysteria and ignoring what actually happened eh? Are you trying to tell me the England Selectors 1st picked him in the knowledge that in a few years he would come to the West Indies and they would throw wickets around like loose change?

England fans might be happy, West Indian fans might be angry, but true cricket fans will be disapointed, since they have been robbed of what was turning into an interisting match.
 

Neil Pickup

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SpaceMonkey said:
Well if i had the choice of watching a brillient game that england lost or a boring one sided affair that england won id ALWAYS take the england winning option.

Of course it would be nice for england to win in a brilliently close match but its never like that.
Except the time we skittled the WI for 54 and then Corky led us home :)
 

SpaceMonkey

International Debutant
Arrow said:
I had to adjust my monitor when i saw the headline.

Windies have been pittyful for a long time but getting bowled out for 47 by england of all teams AT home is beyond pathetic.

It just really really sad.

All hope is not lost though.In 99 they were all out for 49 against australia and went onto almost beat them,so with this team who knows?

I know id never bet a cent on them though.
was all out for 51 not 49 i believe
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
SpaceMonkey said:
Well if i had the choice of watching a brillient game that england lost or a boring one sided affair that england won id ALWAYS take the england winning option.

Of course it would be nice for england to win in a brilliently close match but its never like that.
Unless the game is won by an amazing bowling performance (take Caddick at Headingly, although again there were very poor shots, but also superb bowling), I would much rather see a good match. In this case the result may say England won by 10 wickets, but everyone will know the West Indies threw it away.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Rik, did you say the same about Lords against the West Indies last time (sorry Liam!) when we skittled them?

I very much doubt it.

The selectors have been proved right in their selection and persistance with Harmison.

50 wickets at an average in the mid 20's and it is dropping rapidly.

Pace, Aggression, Bounce and wickets.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Rik said:
In this case the result may say England won by 10 wickets, but everyone will know the West Indies threw it away.
They hardly batted well in the first innings did they - one partnership of note.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
marc71178 said:
Rik, did you say the same about Lords against the West Indies last time (sorry Liam!) when we skittled them?

I very much doubt it.

The selectors have been proved right in their selection and persistance with Harmison.

50 wickets at an average in the mid 20's and it is dropping rapidly.

Pace, Aggression, Bounce and wickets.
I wasn't on this board when the West Indies were over here last! But yes I did feel the same, I felt disapointed and robbed. Though England collapsed and made it interisting, and Corkie's innings made it less drab than it could have been. Certainly didn't deserve CH4's title of the best test ever though...

Pace, Aggression, Bounce and Wickets, well I'd hardly claim there is much aggression there, and you missed out his major attribute, luck, in spades.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
marc71178 said:
They hardly batted well in the first innings did they - one partnership of note.
Indeed, and I commented on that earlier. But they bowled well enough to limit England to a lead of only 28, it could have been much worse. But then, when a side commits ritual suicide and keep on throwing their wickets away and are bowled out for only 47, I think it's pretty obvious that they threw the match away. Brain Lara just admitted as much. A lead of 28 points towards 2 pretty even teams, in an evenly balanced match. Vaughan must feel like he won the lottery, I didn't have to do anything, they did it all for him.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Rik said:
But they bowled well enough to limit England to a lead of only 28,
Funny that - the English batsmen contributed to their own demise big time, but you call that good bowling?

I'm finding this hilarious.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
marc71178 said:
Funny that - the English batsmen contributed to their own demise big time, but you call that good bowling?

I'm finding this hilarious.
I'm not doubting England bowled pretty well, but they didn't deserve 47 all out. England's innings was certainly nowhere near the procession of poor shots that the West Indies' was. Although Trescothick, Nasser and Thorpe all played shots they won't be proud of.
 

Neil Pickup

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And Read and Flintoff's were both horrific, Vaughan chased a very wide one, Harmison committed Hara-kiri (spelt OK, Ged?) and Jones played a village shot.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Neil Pickup said:
And Read and Flintoff's were both horrific, Vaughan chased a very wide one, Harmison committed Hara-kiri (spelt OK, Ged?) and Jones played a village shot.
Ok fair enough, I wasn't listening then. I only heard that Tresco, Thorpe and Nass played poor shots and heard something about Dooje not thinking Vaughan's got what it takes to be an opener (since Australia his form has been patchy to say the least, was his point), but I didn't hear any report of anyone else playing poor shots. Certainly today all there have been are reports of amazing bowling, when I saw with my own eyes, the West Indies throwing their wickets away. Poor shots don't mean a side has bowled well, I think The WIndies' 47 showed that up, though this time I managed to see it on TV. And I think it's Hari-Kari.
 

Neil Pickup

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Interesting Harmo-facts:

Since the start of the Second Innings of the Fourth Ashes Test, he has 42 wickets for 868 @ 20.66

In his last five innings, 22 wickets for 185 @ 8.40
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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SpaceMonkey said:
was all out for 51 not 49 i believe
Yes, and it was also after a dismal tour of South Africa.

I still say that these teams are even and, as I told Neil and Halsey on MSN, it will be the brain lapses like this morning that decide the series. Horrible match for the West Indies in a couple of key ways - loss and injury.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
47 is a disgrace, but still you have to give credit to Harmison..it must have been a very good spell of bowling.

Smith & Jacobs scored 27 of the 47 runs.
 
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Mr Mxyzptlk

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marc71178 said:
Funny that - the English batsmen contributed to their own demise big time, but you call that good bowling?

I'm finding this hilarious.
But the West Indies could have had wickets otherwise with any luck. Collymore in particular was unlucky IMO. Edwards on day 2 also.

IMO both teams bowled very well, but England's exploits this morning were really flattered by some senseless West Indian batting.

All I can say is that it was a collapse of West Indian proportions. I pondered using the adjective 'Bangladeshi', but they've never made that few have they.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
I just went back to my game on ICC2, and this happened in the 5th Test against the West Indies in the West Indies. Williamson is a right arm fast bowler who took 7-37 in the 1st innings...freaky!
 

Attachments

Langeveldt

Soutie
Whether or not those wickets were gifted or not, I think Harmison earnt them.. He bowled very well in that second innings...

So congratulations where it is due, hes done nicely for himself and those stats dont look too bad :)
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Langeveldt said:
Whether or not those wickets were gifted or not, I think Harmison earnt them.. He bowled very well in that second innings...
How can you earn a gifted wicket? You can bowl well enough to deserve to take wickets, but you can't earn a gifted wicket, since it's handed to you on a plate. It's like saying you earnt a £5 note you found lying on the pavement because you were the first person to notice it lying there!
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
Rik said:
I wasn't on this board when the West Indies were over here last! But yes I did feel the same, I felt disapointed and robbed. Though England collapsed and made it interisting, and Corkie's innings made it less drab than it could have been. Certainly didn't deserve CH4's title of the best test ever though...

Pace, Aggression, Bounce and Wickets, well I'd hardly claim there is much aggression there, and you missed out his major attribute, luck, in spades.
I didn't feel disappointed or robbed at that Lord's match. Well, I did, rather, as England collapsed to 133 and it looked like we were in for another ghastly performance. But the next couple of hours were among the most exhilarating I've ever spent at a cricket match, and the next day probably the tensest. And after the raucous noise the previous evening, the hush around the jam-packed ground was an amazing contrast.

Whether or not it deserved a Best Test Ever award I wouldn't care to judge, but it ranks high on my list. Maybe you just had to be there.

Certainly it wasn't anything like the same for me today, watching it in my living room thousands of miles away from the action.

I'd agree that the WI batsmen contributed to their own demise, but I wouldn't want to write off Harmison's performance today as simplistically as that.

I'm not sure what 7-12 bowling is supposed to look like, but I can see what people mean when they say that what Harmison bowled didn't look like it, whatever it is. But there will always be occasions when bowlers get more wickets than they deserve, and others when they bowl really well for no reward.

The question lying at the back of the sceptical comments is "OK, what happens when he bowls like that against a bunch of batsmen not bent on suicide?"

And although the Harmo-bashers won't agree, I think that if he carries on bowling like that, he will take wickets. Against good batsmen playing properly as well as batsmen not playing very well for whatever reason.

They showed a graphic of where he'd been pitching the ball after about 6 or 7 overs. There were two which had pitched more than a foot wide of the stumps, and I reckon one of those had been deliberate. Two or three had been pitched well short, but the rest had pitched within a yard of each other, on a different length to the one he'd been pitching it on in the first innings. From this length, he got the ball to rear up into the batsmen, tucking them up and making it difficult for them to play, and several of them got themselves out by making poor attempts at probably the wrong balls. It was accurate, controlled pace bowling.

On that form, I'd reckon that he would get a wicket in his 6-7 over opening spell with the new ball a bit more often than not. And that will do for me, Tommy.

Cheers,

Mike
 

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