*Official* England in South Africa Thread

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Definitely, though i would prefer Pietersen at 5 post thorpe, which leaves 4 open to someone, i don't know who though.

Vaughan
Strauss
Bell
Thorpe
Pieterson
Flintoff
G. Jones (wk)
Giles
Hoggard
10th Man
Harmison

Basically, 4=Thorpe.

 

[twctopcat]

Vaughan
Strauss
Bell
Thorpe
Pieterson
Flintoff
G. Jones (wk)
Giles
Hoggard
10th Man
Harmison

Basically, 4=Thorpe.

I was referring to the point that i don't know who would replace Thorpe, hence post thorpe.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I was referring to the point that i don't know who would replace Thorpe, hence post thorpe.

Ah. When you said post-Thorpe, I thought you meant in the batting order. (ie Thorpe at 4 then Pieterson at 5).

I guess you'd have to slot Collingwood in there unless someone else steps up very soon. Kadeer?

 

[marc71178]

Nah, it was just Polly at mid off waving a slice of Biltong about

So that's what happened!

 

[marc71178]

I guess you'd have to slot Collingwood in there unless someone else steps up very soon. Kadeer?

Harmo's making a claim for it now!

 

[Langeveldt]

So that's what happened!

Yeah, we have a plan for all you tubbers.. Boerewors are put in the dressing room for Trescothick, and he is back in no time at all

 

[tooextracool]

Too bloody right!

4207 runs @ 42.49 v 663 @ 31.57. No-brainer.

I'd sooner have Tres making shaky 130s than Key skipping down the wicket & being stumped after having missed out on a nice juicy full toss the previous ball.

of course the fact that the 31 includes performances when he was quite clearly rubbish. since his return into the side late last year hes averaged over 50. and as far as the key skipping down the wicket is concerned, remember this, he may have played a poor stroke to get out, but he looked far more assured than any other player in the side for that innings. not to forget that he survived for more balls than anyone else in the side, so he was effectively our best batsman of the inning. while tresco played his oh so brilliant innings of 0.

 

[Mr Casson]

of course the fact that the 31 includes performances when he was quite clearly rubbish. since his return into the side late last year hes averaged over 50. and as far as the key skipping down the wicket is concerned, remember this, he may have played a poor stroke to get out, but he looked far more assured than any other player in the side for that innings. not to forget that he survived for more balls than anyone else in the side, so he was effectively our best batsman of the inning. while tresco played his oh so brilliant innings of 0.

Seconded.

Way too much was made of Key's dismissal in the second innings. Sure enough, he came down the wicket, but was he looking to smash the ball out of the park? No, he was trying to defend it. Of course you can stay in your crease to defend as well, but the way Boje was pitching them up, all Key had to do was come down a pace of two to get to it on the full. As it happens, Boje sent down a flat one with a lot of turn that spun away from him.... Good ball, that. But Key had the right idea.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

of course the fact that the 31 includes performances when he was quite clearly rubbish. since his return into the side late last year hes averaged over 50. and as far as the key skipping down the wicket is concerned, remember this, he may have played a poor stroke to get out, but he looked far more assured than any other player in the side for that innings.

Be serious. Key has scored 419 runs in his last 9 Test innings. He averages 52.37 in that time. He has scored 198 runs in his 8 non-221 innings. He averages 28.28 aside from his 221. He's yet to convince.

15, 29, 4, 6, 93*, 10, 0, 41

Agreed he did look very assured until he got out, but that's the story of Daren Ganga's career. I don't see people saying he should open if he were English.

not to forget that he survived for more balls than anyone else in the side, so he was effectively our best batsman of the inning. while tresco played his oh so brilliant innings of 0.

And Key's 0 in the first innings? That was good shot selection too?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Seconded.

Way too much was made of Key's dismissal in the second innings. Sure enough, he came down the wicket, but was he looking to smash the ball out of the park? No, he was trying to defend it. Of course you can stay in your crease to defend as well, but the way Boje was pitching them up, all Key had to do was come down a pace of two to get to it on the full. As it happens, Boje sent down a flat one with a lot of turn that spun away from him.... Good ball, that. But Key had the right idea.

He came down the track with aggression. He tried to adjust to defence later. Don't think for a second that Key went down the track with intentions simply to defend.

It was a Ramprakash-esque shot. Not quite as horrible and legendary, but still a brainless shot.

 

[tooextracool]

Be serious. Key has scored 419 runs in his last 9 Test innings. He averages 52.37 in that time. He has scored 198 runs in his 8 non-221 innings. He averages 28.28 aside from his 221. He's yet to convince.

15, 29, 4, 6, 93*, 10, 0, 41

and of course you were watching his 93 with those blindfolds on werent you?
seriously match winning innings on a sticky wicket coming at 27/2, batted till the end. could you ask for anything better? no he hasnt been particularly brilliant for the rest of his career, but he certainly has shown signs of it especially in that 41. IMO id rather have someone like key who has already shown that hes more than capable on seamer friendly wickets than someone like tresco who fails time and time again and still somehow manages to be selected. certainly when it comes to reliability i think its fairly obvious that tresco can never be relied upon.
with regard to some of those low scores, 1 was a run out, hardly something he can blamed for,and another was a collymore jaffa, again rather unfortunate for him. he was poor in the edgbaston test i'll give you that. then of course they pick him in the side short of practice and he makes a 0, hardly surprising. 2nd inning hes the best player in the side and there are calls for his head.

Agreed he did look very assured until he got out, but that's the story of Daren Ganga's career. I don't see people saying he should open if he were English.

And Key's 0 in the first innings? That was good shot selection too?

except that darren ganga has rarely ever been the best player in any inning away from home, even if he was im quite sure he was never dropped after that. seriously why the hell would anyone drop someone who performed better than everyone else in the side in the 2nd inning? and not once have i claimed that his shot selection was brilliant, nor have i claimed that he was test class, but id personally rather give someone like key a chance to come in and bat better than everyone else in the side and then come down the track and play a poor stroke, than have the perennial trescothick edge to slip,which IMO is even more disgraceful for someone to repeat the same mistake for decades and decades.

 

[tooextracool]

He came down the track with aggression. He tried to adjust to defence later. Don't think for a second that Key went down the track with intentions simply to defend.

It was a Ramprakash-esque shot. Not quite as horrible and legendary, but still a brainless shot.

yes and when lara played an even more atrocious shot against giles in england it obviously isnt all that brainless

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

yes and when lara played an even more atrocious shot against giles in england it obviously isnt all that brainless

No, that was brainless too. You'd know that if you read my comment after he played the brainless shot.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

seriously why the hell would anyone drop someone who performed better than everyone else in the side in the 2nd inning? and not once have i claimed that his shot selection was brilliant, nor have i claimed that he was test class, but id personally rather give someone like key a chance to come in and bat better than everyone else in the side and then come down the track and play a poor stroke, than have the perennial trescothick edge to slip,which IMO is even more disgraceful for someone to repeat the same mistake for decades and decades.

You never claimed Key's shot selection was brilliant, but you were pushing an argument against Trescothick by bringing up a poor duck. ("while tresco played his oh so brilliant innings of 0.") Key's duck was just as poor.

I'm not saying Key should be dropped right away, although I would prefer to see Bell there and I'd still back Trescothick ahead of Key still. I don't see a huge future in Key. He may well go on to average a solid 30odd, but I think England can do better.

 

[tooextracool]

No, that was brainless too. You'd know that if you read my comment after he played the brainless shot.

everyone is prone to the odd loss in concentration, what really impressed me most was that he went through 137 balls without a rush of blood, something that i couldnt say about all the other batsmen.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

everyone is prone to the odd loss in concentration, what really impressed me most was that he went through 137 balls without a rush of , something that i couldnt say about all the other batsmen.

As good as that innings may have been to that point, you still can't deny how poor the dismissal was. He got a start and didn't get stuck in. The same can be said of all the batsmen really. The reason why Key is being highlighted is because he's the one genuinely under pressure to be sacked.

 

[tooextracool]

You never claimed Key's shot selection was brilliant, but you were pushing an argument against Trescothick by bringing up a poor duck. ("while tresco played his oh so brilliant innings of 0.") Key's duck was just as poor.

I'm not saying Key should be dropped right away, although I would prefer to see Bell there and I'd still back Trescothick ahead of Key still. I don't see a huge future in Key. He may well go on to average a solid 30odd, but I think England can do better.

well its only a matter of opinion, personally ive never been a big key fan. you of all people should know that given that we had quite the contradictory argument about key after his 221. but I see something to back him, if he can perform like he did in that 93* id back him to average far over 40. tresco IMO has always been the unreliable FTB that everyone has simply grown tired of seeing fail everytime we need him most and i think its going to be the same in the next ashes.

 

[tooextracool]

As good as that innings may have been to that point, you still can't deny how poor the dismissal was. He got a start and didn't get stuck in. The same can be said of all the batsmen really. The reason why Key is being highlighted is because he's the one genuinely under pressure to be sacked.

no i havent denied that the dismissal is poor, but every one has poor dismissals on occasions. but its not about poor dismissals, its about potential, remember flintoff was just as bad and on this tour hes gone bad to old days. at least key showed some fight, at least he batted more than everyone else. really how many batsmen on this tour have impressed? only strauss really. and yet key is the one under all the pressure.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The question is whether Key is up to such a huge ask as the Ashes. The other question (which I asked earlier) is "if not Key/Tresco, then who?"

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

no i havent denied that the dismissal is poor, but every one has poor dismissals on occasions. but its not about poor dismissals, its about potential, remember flintoff was just as bad and on this tour hes gone bad to old days. at least key showed some fight, at least he batted more than everyone else. really how many batsmen on this tour have impressed? only strauss really. and yet key is the one under all the pressure.

Key is under pressure because of statistics. No one can deny the class of Thorpe and Vaughan. Strauss is on fire atm. Flintoff had a wonderful year last year. Trescothick has a good Test record. Jones keeps wicket.

If Key were averaging in the mid to high 30s after 20-30 Tests, he wouldn't be the one under pressure.