*Official* England in South Africa Thread

[Tom Halsey]

rubbish it was just as disgraceful with the happy hookers trying to hook every ball for 6.




and by durban 1st inning i meant 2nd?

a) No it wasn't, alot of the wickets there was nothing that could be done, and SA also bowled very well.

b) No, I was proving that we don't always play stupidly.

 

[tooextracool]

Have you forgotten the 3 Centuries this year then? Not fantastic but I'd much prefer him to stay captain.

2 came in the same test, 1 came in a series where he was abysmal in all the other innings. his scores dont lie, hes struggled ever since hes taken over the captaincy in 03.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Not been as good as he was, still good overall IMO though.

 

[tooextracool]

a) No it wasn't, alot of the wickets there was nothing that could be done, and SA also bowled very well.

oh really?
strauss hammered a straight ball from boje to ntini at mid off. deserved wicket? no
trescothick as usual not footwork and gets an outside edge to abd- deserved wicket or poor batting?i'll choose the latter
butcher- gets an inside edge and is bowled- possibly misfortune rather than brilliant bowling
thorpe- misses a straight ball from pollock and gets lbw
vaughan- perhaps one of the few good balls
flintoff- careless hook
jones- absolute ****ing disgrace of a wicket, i mean after getting let off like 5 times with that stupid shot he still goes for it.

b) No, I was proving that we don't always play stupidly.

which is something that i never claimed in the first place, you said that it hadnt been a while since we had batted stupidly, im saying that we've already done that in the previous test.

 

[tooextracool]

Not been as good as he was, still good overall IMO though.

its clearly affecting the side ATM and a weakness like this will affect us in the ashes. yes it didnt affect us against the likes of WI and NZ but we all know that those teams dont come close to australia.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Considering this looks like the 1st defeat in 14, I don't think the side has been too badly affected.

And for the Ahses, yes I worry, but because the Aussies are very good, not because we are being adversely affected.

 

[Tom Halsey]

which is something that i never claimed in the first place, you said that it hadnt been a while since we had batted stupidly, im saying that we've already done that in the previous test.

You were implying it would likely happen tomorrow, and I'm not so sure.

 

[Langeveldt]

Dudes, put the knives away for god sake.. You haven't lost a test yet, for absolutely ages.. Remember what it was like in 1999 and have a smile

 

[tooextracool]

Considering this looks like the 1st defeat in 14, I don't think the side has been too badly affected.

And for the Ahses, yes I worry, but because the Aussies are very good, not because we are being adversely affected.

and did the thought occur to you that we could be better?
yes its the first defeat blah blah blah, vaughans batting has been poor for a long long time now.

 

[tooextracool]

You were implying it would likely happen tomorrow, and I'm not so sure.

no even if we bat out of our skins tomorrow, we'll still lose.

 

[tooextracool]

Dudes, put the knives away for god sake.. You haven't lost a test yet, for absolutely ages.. Remember what it was like in 1999 and have a smile

and remember what it was like in 01, when we won 4 test series in a row? what happened to that side afterwards?
no im not saying that we still arent a very good team, im saying i think its far more important that we have vaughan the classy player back instead of vaughan the captain.

 

[Langeveldt]

and remember what it was like in 01, when we won 4 test series in a row? what happened to that side afterwards?
no im not saying that we still arent a very good team, im saying i think its far more important that we have vaughan the classy player back instead of vaughan the captain.

Whilst running the risk of whoever the replacement captain is (Strauss, Tres) suffering a similar slump in form...

 

[tooextracool]

Whilst running the risk of whoever the replacement captain is (Strauss, Tres) suffering a similar slump in form...

of course, theres always that risk whenever you select anyone as captain. the thing is that its a known fact that vaughan has struggled since taking over the captaincy, at least we dont know that about anyone else. the vaughan thing was a major mistake when it first happened, ive always been completely against selecting someone with very little international experience and someone who was really in a brilliant vein of form at the time. its the same thing with strauss, if things are good then dont change it. which really only leaves tresco who unfortunately will always suffer periods of poor form with people calling for his axing throughout his career.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Post

I was simply responding to:

You cant keep SA down for much long,maybe they dont have world-class players but they are slowly and surely on their way to being one of the top teams in the world...might be too early to say...but this test is showing the signs

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Whilst running the risk of whoever the replacement captain is (Strauss, Tres) suffering a similar slump in form...

If you're worried about whoever is captain suffering poor form, then shouldn't it be your best batsman or bowler, assuming he's very good. That way he'll still perform well despite the pressures. Seriously, a captain is there for captaincy skill. You can't worry about how the captaincy will affect form if the given person is best for the job.

 

[Link]

I too miss the classy Vaughan, Tres should have been given the job in the first place he was the vice captain. It seems like we've lost a batsman

 

[Legglancer]

Imposition of agony by Neil Manthorp

Posted on 4 January 2005

You've got to love Ray Jennings. The self-appointed hard man of South African cricket believes more than anyone in the country in making the opposition suffer. Back-to-back Test matches in Durban and Cape Town result in players feeling the agony of the heat, humidity and wind and he had the perfect men in Jacques Kallis and Boeta Dippenaar to impose the suffering on England.
There were many, many good reasons not to enforce the follow-on and put England's weary, pained bowlers back in the field. Another couple of hundred runs would put the game entirely beyond the wildest dreams of England' supporters and remove the possibility of another Durban-like resurrection on the scale of the 570-7 they managed after being bowled out for 139.

Tactically there were sound reasons for Graeme Smith's decision to bat again, despite a huge lead of 278, but there were also good reasons to have put England back in again. Charl Langeveldt and the rest of the bowlers had only bowled half a dozen overs apiece in the second innings and they were fresh and raring to go.

But the over-riding reason for the decision to put England back into the field was the physical suffering they would endure - not to mention the emotional and psychological strife.

Jennings tries hard not to impose his views and beliefs on Smith but, when the skipper has suffered an early dismissal and needs time to reflect on his position of authority, the coach's words of advice would have been received with welcome ears.

I can't be sure what 'Jet' said, but when he looked around at his own players and saw them creaking with the aches and pains of seven days cricket out of nine, I'm certain he would have reminded them that Michael Vaughan and his team were feeling much worse.

If Kallis had carried on the savage assault with which he started his innings then England may, subconciously at least, have consoled themselves with the fact that the end was nigh. Perhaps defeat was looming but, when you are batting to save the Test, only two men are involved. The rest can spread themselves around the assortment of physiotherapists benches and comfortable chairs in the dressing room, only occasionally required to gather together to applaud a team mate on reaching a gritty 50 before returning to restful slumber.

But with Kallis and Dippenaar steadfastly blocking the cover off the ball, leaving it and sporadically taking a single, the England team were made to feel not just despondent but angry at the apparently 'aimless' batting of the home side.

Taking a cue from the imaginative and vivid imagery often employed ny Jennings, imagine you were a mouse that had been caught by a vicious swipe from a cat. The blow had maimed you badly and there was very little hope of survival. But instead of ripping your head off with a final swipe, the cat waits, interspersing it's patience with periodical swipes, without claws. The result is anger - not merely a painful but resigned acceptance of defeat. Jennings hopes that anger will still be around during the fourth and fifth Tests, and that it will be a sufficient distraction to help sway the series South Africa's way.

 

[Neil Pickup]

I too miss the classy Vaughan, Tres should have been given the job in the first place he was the vice captain. It seems like we've lost a batsman

I don't think that Trescothick is aggressive/innovative enough to skipper.

I don't want any changes, period...

 

[Langeveldt]

Imposition of agony by Neil Manthorp

Posted on 4 January 2005

You've got to love Ray Jennings. The self-appointed hard man of South African cricket believes more than anyone in the country in making the opposition suffer. Back-to-back Test matches in Durban and Cape Town result in players feeling the agony of the heat, humidity and wind and he had the perfect men in Jacques Kallis and Boeta Dippenaar to impose the suffering on England.
There were many, many good reasons not to enforce the follow-on and put England's weary, pained bowlers back in the field. Another couple of hundred runs would put the game entirely beyond the wildest dreams of England' supporters and remove the possibility of another Durban-like resurrection on the scale of the 570-7 they managed after being bowled out for 139.

Tactically there were sound reasons for Graeme Smith's decision to bat again, despite a huge lead of 278, but there were also good reasons to have put England back in again. Charl Langeveldt and the rest of the bowlers had only bowled half a dozen overs apiece in the second innings and they were fresh and raring to go.

But the over-riding reason for the decision to put England back into the field was the physical suffering they would endure - not to mention the emotional and psychological strife.

Jennings tries hard not to impose his views and beliefs on Smith but, when the skipper has suffered an early dismissal and needs time to reflect on his position of authority, the coach's words of advice would have been received with welcome ears.

I can't be sure what 'Jet' said, but when he looked around at his own players and saw them creaking with the aches and pains of seven days cricket out of nine, I'm certain he would have reminded them that Michael Vaughan and his team were feeling much worse.

If Kallis had carried on the savage assault with which he started his innings then England may, subconciously at least, have consoled themselves with the fact that the end was nigh. Perhaps defeat was looming but, when you are batting to save the Test, only two men are involved. The rest can spread themselves around the assortment of physiotherapists benches and comfortable chairs in the dressing room, only occasionally required to gather together to applaud a team mate on reaching a gritty 50 before returning to restful slumber.

But with Kallis and Dippenaar steadfastly blocking the cover off the ball, leaving it and sporadically taking a single, the England team were made to feel not just despondent but angry at the apparently 'aimless' batting of the home side.

Taking a cue from the imaginative and vivid imagery often employed ny Jennings, imagine you were a mouse that had been caught by a vicious swipe from a cat. The blow had maimed you badly and there was very little hope of survival. But instead of ripping your head off with a final swipe, the cat waits, interspersing it's patience with periodical swipes, without claws. The result is anger - not merely a painful but resigned acceptance of defeat. Jennings hopes that anger will still be around during the fourth and fifth Tests, and that it will be a sufficient distraction to help sway the series South Africa's way.

Interesting article.. Neil Manthorp has proved himself to be a top class bloke in my eyes.. Thats an interesting viewpoint..

I think Dippenaar could have been so slow, because he still feels like he is playing for his position

 

[gio]

If Flintoff is ruled out for the rest of the tour, I can't see England coming back. 2-1 to SA and England to lose ODIs 5-2. Unfortunate really, but with Flintoff gone, there is no balance to the side, especially since so many batsman, and Harmison, are out of form.