***Official*** England in Pakistan

[marc71178]

Another quick thing, Ashley Giles might be a really nice guy but come on England he has to go.

Why?

Because he didn't run through a side when he was hampered by injury on wickets which didn't help?

He's still far and away the best option available.

 

[marc71178]

I think you're overrating the England batting lineup and underrating the **** bowling attack to say England should have won that first test.

Having got that first innings lead and chasing a relatively small target?

 

[marc71178]

Probably similar to why Australia haven't produced a decent off-spinner in ages; the decks. Warnie does well because Warnie is a giant of the game and bowls well on any surface. He himself is a once-in-a-generation player. England just haven't had theirs yet.

We have, but he bats at 6 and opens the bowling.

 

[marc71178]

regardless they are still the best opening pair in the world, one below par series doesn't overshadow 4 1/2 years of outstanding performances

And in that 4 and a half years, how many times did they face a consistently good attack?

 

[ClownSymonds]

And in that 4 and a half years, how many times did they face a consistently good attack?

Oh, so England's almighty attack is the only "consistently good" one around (besides Australia's)?

 

[uziluva]

Why?

Because he didn't run through a side when he was hampered by injury on wickets which didn't help?

He's still far and away the best option available.

So when he's not injured he does run through sides?

And you say it like there's no inbetween out of "running through a side" and getting out a couple of tail enders in 4 innings like Giles has.

So what wickets do help? Don't tell me, his overrated but much heralded 17 wickets @ 30+ in Pakistan 2000 or whatever it was and he's been unlucky to never bowl on any others.

 

[Top_Cat]

We have, but he bats at 6 and opens the bowling.

Spinners, Marc, SPINNERS.

Besides, Freddie is a top-class Test player right now but I don't think he can be rated as a great just yet. We'll see once his career is over and his numbers improve, of course.

 

[social]

Spinners, Marc, SPINNERS.

Besides, Freddie is a top-class Test player right now but I don't think he can be rated as a great just yet. We'll see once his career is over and his numbers improve, of course.

The way he has been batting and bowling recently, he'll end up with career averages of 25 in both disciplines.

 

[Top_Cat]

The way he has been batting and bowling recently, he'll end up with career averages of 25 in both disciplines.

I don't think he will; I think he'll be run into the ground and maybe have a career-threatening injury well before that ever happens.

 

[social]

Yeah valid point, they just seem to have hit a stumbling block, I could say this of the batters
Tres- No blame whatsoever

strauss- Mind was somewhere else [understandably]

vaughan- I don't know, maybe someone else has got a view on this

bell- Showed fight but the cheap dismissals have cost us dear. One gets the feeling that he cannot afford to play at say 90%, he has to be at his best to perform.

Pietersen- He can afford to play at even 80% and still be good, but that is what breeds complacency. Is it just me or has his footworrk been abit reduced this series, he got bowled alot in the tour games. i would rather see his exaggerated foowrk for an LBW rather than a waft.

Flintoff- Another one who complacency has hit.

Collingwood- I dont get this guy. Everytime i think he is going to perfom he doesn't. when i give up on him he brings the good. I think i is better i give up on hm.

Jones- Shockingly enough, i would say he has been satisfactory, always run out of partners/ or got a beauty. didn't fall in the compacency trap

Giles. Fight with the bat but shocking with the ball. For once he goes into a series with a reputation, and looks what he does. always been behind the pace with the ball

Others dont really count. feel free to air your views.

Main problems for Eng are:

Strauss - has averaged 31 from his last 10 tests including 8 single figure scores from his last 18 innings. He's been worked out to a degree and has a lot of work to do on his technique.

Vaughan - fine captain but not fit and definitely not the player that he was. Very vulnerable early on.

KP and Bell - talented but still learning. Expect further inconsistent performances until they hone their game for tests.

Flintoff - cant do it all. Being burdened with a lot of bowling has affected his batting since Ashes. Has been little better than a talented slogger since then.

I dont think complacency or distractions (what would you call Warne's separation during the Ashes) come into it, they've simply found their current level.

 

[social]

As Ive said ad nauseam, and at the risk of saying "I told you so", the major problem with Eng's spinnings ranks has been the attitude adopted towards Ashley Giles.

Taking 2 - 80 off 35 negative overs is only acceptable in certain circumstances, it should not be taken as the standard. What motivation is there for a young spinner to be aggressive and experimental when they can see themselves playing 50 tests by doing little more than bowling darts and being a servicable no. 8.

Until management's mind-set changes and young spin bowlers are encouraged to become attacking forces in their own right, there wont be any discernible improvement.

You reap what you sow.

 

[marc71178]

Oh, so England's almighty attack is the only "consistently good" one around (besides Australia's)?

Name me another side (Australia included) with the consistency shown in the Ashes.

 

[marc71178]

So when he's not injured he does run through sides?

If conditions suit, he does - I note that conditions in which he's been criticised for not exploiting, Kaneria had 5 wickets @ 50odd.

So what wickets do help? Don't tell me, his overrated but much heralded 17 wickets @ 30+ in Pakistan 2000 or whatever it was and he's been unlucky to never bowl on any others.

17 @ 24.11 you mean?

Far from 30+ that.

 

[Top_Cat]

Name me another side (Australia included) with the consistency shown in the Ashes.

None. The point is, that England bowled exceptionally well and had a great attack to work with. That attack would have found out most players. This does not invalidate all of the runs the Aussie openers have scored against other teams who, whilst not as consistent, still had reasonable attacks. Pakistan at home had Saqlain and Shoaib, South Africa at home and away had Donald, Pollock and Ntini, etc. So whilst the bowling against other countries wasn't as consistently good as the English attack, not many of them were poor either.

 

[uziluva]

If conditions suit, he does - I note that conditions in which he's been criticised for not exploiting, Kaneria had 5 wickets @ 50 odd.

He played a big enough role and was the most important match winner in the first test, dismissing set, frontline batsman, compared to lower order tailenders.

Comparing the impacts of the two in this series is not a sensible route to go down.

 

[sqwerty]

Spinners, Marc, SPINNERS.

Besides, Freddie is a top-class Test player right now but I don't think he can be rated as a great just yet. We'll see once his career is over and his numbers improve, of course.

Definitely....he's only a potential at the moment. Averaging 30 with bat and ball is far from great.

 

[Beleg]

Pakistan hasn't lost a test series in England since, hmm, early 1980's?


Interesting, when people talk about Pakistan being stronger at home; I have always felt that they play better overcease, specially in the last 15-20 years. (excepting Australia, of course )

 

[tooextracool]

Main problems for Eng are:

Strauss - has averaged 31 from his last 10 tests including 8 single figure scores from his last 18 innings. He's been worked out to a degree and has a lot of work to do on his technique.

Vaughan - fine captain but not fit and definitely not the player that he was. Very vulnerable early on.

KP and Bell - talented but still learning. Expect further inconsistent performances until they hone their game for tests.

Strauss is clearly not good enough against spin, and he looks quite susceptible against an inswinger early on in his innings. as far as vaughan is concerned, theres only a certain amount of time that you can put your name down in the england XI without scoring, captaincy or not. Personally i dont think tresco is too much worse as a captain, and i'd rather vaughan played solely as a batsman.
The major problems for England is the fact that they're ordinary batting in the Ashes wasnt shown up as much as it would have if SP jones and Flintoff didnt bowl like legends. now that one is injured and the other has struggled to get the ball to reverse their bowling has been less effective(while their pace bowlers have still been respectable) as a result. But their batting has just been quite immature, every player bar none threw his wicket away in the first innings(and pretty much all series). as such i dont mind players who can actually play the sweep shot somewhat competently doing so. but the likes of flintoff,geraint and bell playing the sweep shot even though they have no idea how to is quite ludicrous. England may have gotten away with the lack of an experience player in the middle order during the Ashes, and their 'throw everything at it' attitude may have paid off in the Ashes especially with the luck of the coin and the quality of bowling following it up, but they certainly needed someone during this series, especially when strauss and vaughan didnt step up.

 

[tooextracool]

Giles - Totally unfit to be fair to him, not to mention pitches that werent as spin friendly as we thought, still no excuse.

the ptiches are no more or less spinner friendly than they were last time around. he clearly bowl with consderably less accuracy than he usually does, which would seem to suggest that he was being hampered by his hip injury

Pietersen - did well considering how poor he did in the warm up games, was totally unlucky to get out in the 3rd test, once in a series catch by the keeper.

Pietersens main problem is that he looks to play his shots before getting set. Hes provided plenty of reason during this series as to why hes overrated and its not particularly surprising that his only 100 involved plenty of missed chances, much like his 158. Pietersen and Bell though look good enough to learn over time(hopefully they can learn from their shortfalls before the tour of india), but the selectors really need to keep an eye open for Vaughan and Strauss, because the team cant afford to carry 2 underperforming players in the side, along with an extremely delicate middle order

 

[Beleg]

England getting massacred here. And this time around, everyone is getting the stick.