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***Official*** England in India
- Thread starter Pratters
- Start date
Neil Pickup
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Any sign of baby?Langeveldt said:
Mr Mxyzptlk
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"Bad knees, backs, form, "personal problems", and a Plunkett heel, and England head into another Test series. No pressure? Absolutely."
Cruising through a crisis.
It may seem obvious that England are under immense pressure heading into the first Test match against India on Wednesday, but in actuality, it should be the opposite.
Michael Vaughan is perhaps the most crucial on a growing injured list within the squad and with leadership already lacking, vice-captain Marcus Trescothick returned home in a last minute decision for personal reasons. Crisis is indeed the word to describe the dismantling of an England squad which hoped to rebound from defeat in Pakistan and prove that last year's Ashes glory was no lucky strike.
In these testing times the burden should be lightened, however, when all things are considered and the situation be analyzed in a less-then-cynical light. For many, the England cricketers were never expected to win in India, even with an ideal player pool at the disposal of the selectors. Indeed, there is good reason why the subcontinent is considered the final frontier.
England may have beaten the best in the world, but now they face the "best at home". That the English tourists would lose was almost a foregone conclusion in the eyes of the general public. The batsmen will struggle to adapt to the spinning conditions and the bowlers will be frustrated by the quality of the Indian batsmanship - firm predictions. Negativity aside, it was still expected that the Ashes champions would pose a sufficient challenge to justify a 2-point lead over India in the ICC Test rankings.
Now it is far less than an England first XI that will match up to the impending mountain that is this series. No more is this tidbit epitomized than the high likelihood of 21-year-old Alastair Cook debuting at Nagpur on Wednesday, having been with the England 'A' team in the West Indies mere days before.
Giles is absent, so Monty Panesar may also receive his first Test cap at the age of 23 and with just 29 games of First Class experience. A troublesome knee and a home-bound Vaughan, and Freddie Flintoff will be forced to add yet another skill to his growing resume.
So no pressure then? Absolutely.
The devastating pre-series buildup for England has eliminated four players from the Test squad and sees four others carrying injuries or sickness. More importantly though, it has eliminated a lion's share of pressure from an England perspective. These cricketers were not expected to win in India in the first place, and now the expectation is a step further as India should not only beat the tourists, but deal out a thrashing upon the second-ranked team in the world.
At times when there is only one direction in which to stride, it generally tends to be up. Anything England can accomplish on this tour will only augur well for the future. Contrary to popular belief, life is easier for the underdogs. England's favourite Aussie, Shane Warne once said, "Pressure is the fear of failing." If no one believes that England will succeed, surely that fear becomes obsolete.
Now India is the team with the pressure on, in the same manner as an Australian team against Bangladesh. Losing is no longer an option, no less in front of thousands of some of the most passionate supporters in any international sport. Excuses are all but futile in the Indian camp and there will be no shortage of criticism should the seeming inevitable not occur. The stage is potentially set for a modern day English reversal.
They did it at Edgbaston last year and scripted a famous win en route to reclaiming the Ashes in historic fashion. On the first day of that match, Trescothick and Strauss ignited a stunning charge of casual arrogance against the Australian masters of the art. Thrilled at the opportunity, Kevin Pietersen and Andrew Flintoff then forced the agenda to glorious effect. After the debacle of the first Test match of that series, and the rants of "same old same old", there seemed nothing to lose at the time, so England settled for victory instead.
Fast forward to 2006 and the eve of another major Test series. Forget the drama and disappointment of Pakistan - it means little in the current context. This England team has been forced onto the back foot and consequently can now only make forward movements. England likely will not win in India this year, but it is not for any great shame.
Every delivery that Panesar spins, every ball that Cook negotiates, every tactic that Flintoff executes - building blocks. Subcontinental success may not come for England in 2006, but with this experience gained in the face of great adversity, that achievement and those greater still surely are not far off.
Cruising through a crisis.
It may seem obvious that England are under immense pressure heading into the first Test match against India on Wednesday, but in actuality, it should be the opposite.
Michael Vaughan is perhaps the most crucial on a growing injured list within the squad and with leadership already lacking, vice-captain Marcus Trescothick returned home in a last minute decision for personal reasons. Crisis is indeed the word to describe the dismantling of an England squad which hoped to rebound from defeat in Pakistan and prove that last year's Ashes glory was no lucky strike.
In these testing times the burden should be lightened, however, when all things are considered and the situation be analyzed in a less-then-cynical light. For many, the England cricketers were never expected to win in India, even with an ideal player pool at the disposal of the selectors. Indeed, there is good reason why the subcontinent is considered the final frontier.
England may have beaten the best in the world, but now they face the "best at home". That the English tourists would lose was almost a foregone conclusion in the eyes of the general public. The batsmen will struggle to adapt to the spinning conditions and the bowlers will be frustrated by the quality of the Indian batsmanship - firm predictions. Negativity aside, it was still expected that the Ashes champions would pose a sufficient challenge to justify a 2-point lead over India in the ICC Test rankings.
Now it is far less than an England first XI that will match up to the impending mountain that is this series. No more is this tidbit epitomized than the high likelihood of 21-year-old Alastair Cook debuting at Nagpur on Wednesday, having been with the England 'A' team in the West Indies mere days before.
Giles is absent, so Monty Panesar may also receive his first Test cap at the age of 23 and with just 29 games of First Class experience. A troublesome knee and a home-bound Vaughan, and Freddie Flintoff will be forced to add yet another skill to his growing resume.
So no pressure then? Absolutely.
The devastating pre-series buildup for England has eliminated four players from the Test squad and sees four others carrying injuries or sickness. More importantly though, it has eliminated a lion's share of pressure from an England perspective. These cricketers were not expected to win in India in the first place, and now the expectation is a step further as India should not only beat the tourists, but deal out a thrashing upon the second-ranked team in the world.
At times when there is only one direction in which to stride, it generally tends to be up. Anything England can accomplish on this tour will only augur well for the future. Contrary to popular belief, life is easier for the underdogs. England's favourite Aussie, Shane Warne once said, "Pressure is the fear of failing." If no one believes that England will succeed, surely that fear becomes obsolete.
Now India is the team with the pressure on, in the same manner as an Australian team against Bangladesh. Losing is no longer an option, no less in front of thousands of some of the most passionate supporters in any international sport. Excuses are all but futile in the Indian camp and there will be no shortage of criticism should the seeming inevitable not occur. The stage is potentially set for a modern day English reversal.
They did it at Edgbaston last year and scripted a famous win en route to reclaiming the Ashes in historic fashion. On the first day of that match, Trescothick and Strauss ignited a stunning charge of casual arrogance against the Australian masters of the art. Thrilled at the opportunity, Kevin Pietersen and Andrew Flintoff then forced the agenda to glorious effect. After the debacle of the first Test match of that series, and the rants of "same old same old", there seemed nothing to lose at the time, so England settled for victory instead.
Fast forward to 2006 and the eve of another major Test series. Forget the drama and disappointment of Pakistan - it means little in the current context. This England team has been forced onto the back foot and consequently can now only make forward movements. England likely will not win in India this year, but it is not for any great shame.
Every delivery that Panesar spins, every ball that Cook negotiates, every tactic that Flintoff executes - building blocks. Subcontinental success may not come for England in 2006, but with this experience gained in the face of great adversity, that achievement and those greater still surely are not far off.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It really is a waste of time arguing with you, that's if there actually is an argument with someone who just comes up with one line of massively oversimplified tosh forty thousand times over. Adopting your usual complete and nonsensical generalisation of everything ever posted on CW you must therefore think that when England were playing SA at the end of an exhausting tour they were going at it full tilt in the ODI series - which means you're wrong, which means everything you've ever said in your life is wrong, which means you're a complete muppet... well I guess by law of averages that sort of logic has to stumble on the odd truth eh.marc71178 said:
TIF
U19 Debutant
I am posting in this thread after ages now and what you think about this XI for the 1st test -
Sehwag
Jaffer
Laxman
Tendulkar
Dravid(c)
Dhoni(w)
Pathan
Piyush Chawla
RP Singh
Kumble
Harbhajan Singh
With Dhoni being as good as a regular batsman and Pathan becoming an all-rounder and Piyush Chawla having decent batting ability, I think that India, can afford to play 5 regular bowlers as wickets is what matter to win a test match and England, have always struggled against spin and extra-pace in sub-continental conditions. Not to long ago Kaneria, spun Pakistan to wins against England in the test matches alongwith Akthars expree-pace bowling. With 3 spinners, England will be on the backfoot even before the 1st ball is bowled. The batting, doesnt look bad either with Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dravid and Laxman still there with Dhoni and Pathan to follow. Jaffer might be the surprise package.
Also, Munaf Patel is expected to arrive in the Indian team for the 2nd and 3rd test matches with one of VRV Singh/Sree Santh being dropped.
In a test match almost 1.5 years in Nagpur against Australia, a greentop was used. If that happens again, it wont be a bad idea to in with a 3rd pace-bowler in VRV Singh instead of Piyush Chawla for the 1st test, but anyways India needs to go in with 5 regular bowlers.
Sehwag
Jaffer
Laxman
Tendulkar
Dravid(c)
Dhoni(w)
Pathan
Piyush Chawla
RP Singh
Kumble
Harbhajan Singh
With Dhoni being as good as a regular batsman and Pathan becoming an all-rounder and Piyush Chawla having decent batting ability, I think that India, can afford to play 5 regular bowlers as wickets is what matter to win a test match and England, have always struggled against spin and extra-pace in sub-continental conditions. Not to long ago Kaneria, spun Pakistan to wins against England in the test matches alongwith Akthars expree-pace bowling. With 3 spinners, England will be on the backfoot even before the 1st ball is bowled. The batting, doesnt look bad either with Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dravid and Laxman still there with Dhoni and Pathan to follow. Jaffer might be the surprise package.
Also, Munaf Patel is expected to arrive in the Indian team for the 2nd and 3rd test matches with one of VRV Singh/Sree Santh being dropped.
In a test match almost 1.5 years in Nagpur against Australia, a greentop was used. If that happens again, it wont be a bad idea to in with a 3rd pace-bowler in VRV Singh instead of Piyush Chawla for the 1st test, but anyways India needs to go in with 5 regular bowlers.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Thats the best side India can field.TIF said:
It will be a statement of intent if they did that. It would also be great to watch if India played three spinners. I dont remember when they last did that. Would be interesting to check. Thiry years ago ??
If they did it in between, I doubt if the attack was as good as this looks.
PS: I would have Dravid at 3 and laxman at 5.
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Neil Pickup
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Kumble-Raju-Chauhan when we toured in 1993.SJS said:
Kumble-Chauhan-Kulkarni when Sri Lanka racked up 952-6.
Kumble-Harbhajan-Kartik on the Mumbai Minefield 16 months ago
Mr Mxyzptlk
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Well Kumble and Chawla are two very different types of legspinner from what I've seen. That adds to the mystique.SJS said:Thanks Neil.
As I said, this attack seems much more exciting than any of those.....and....inspite of two leg spinners, some how more varied
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sehwag
Jaffer
Dravid(c)
Tendulkar
Laxman
Dhoni(w)
Pathan
Piyush Chawla
RP Singh
Kumble
Harbhajan Singh
I hope India plays a side like this because I think it gives England the chance to turn an India score of say 200-4 to 300 all out. The only thing that is likely to win games for England is the bowling, the English batting might get some solid scores but it'd be somewhat unexpected if they posted totals of the magnitude 500+.
Jaffer
Dravid(c)
Tendulkar
Laxman
Dhoni(w)
Pathan
Piyush Chawla
RP Singh
Kumble
Harbhajan Singh
I hope India plays a side like this because I think it gives England the chance to turn an India score of say 200-4 to 300 all out. The only thing that is likely to win games for England is the bowling, the English batting might get some solid scores but it'd be somewhat unexpected if they posted totals of the magnitude 500+.
Pratters
Cricket, Lovely Cricket
The nothing series
England’s tour to India was always going to be a big series. England, coming off a series loss in Pakistan, had it all to prove in India. A Test team has to show that it can compete in all conditions and circumstances – then, and only then can it be recognized as one of the better teams of an era. India, having just lost the series in Pakistan, needed to set things straight - mouth watering prospect for a cricket fan.
Then Ashley Giles, England’s number one spinner, gets injured. Marcus Trescothick withdraws for personal reasons, Michael Vaughan, England’s inspirational captain, gets injured and finally Simon Jones, vital in the scheme of things in the subcontinent, decides to join the injury brigade.
So England’s pace attack is left with Steve Harmison (who hasn’t been as effective off late) and Matthew Hoggard (who relies on movement and wasn’t going to be the most important player in the subcontinent anyway). James Anderson, Liam Plunkett, Shaun Udal, Monty Panesar and Ian Blackwell aren’t exactly expected to set the world on fire in India. How will England then get 20 Indian wickets? It is certainly an uphill task.
A win looks improbable then. How about a draw? The English openers are likely to be Andrew Strauss (in poor form) and Alistair Cook (making his Test debut and again, not expected to set the world on fire). Kevin Pietersen still has a lot to prove. Owais Shah or Paul Collingwood (whoever is selected) do not compare to the Indian batsmen. England would have to rely on Ian Bell and some heroics from Andrew Flintoff. The more you look at the English squad, the more you realize how weak it is.
England’s only hope would be that the young bowlers India has chosen do not fire. Two of R.P.Singh, Piyush Chawla, V.R.V.Singh and Sreesanth would be selected if India decided to go in with five bowlers. If those two do not do a satisfactory job, it will be tougher for India to take 20 wickets despite Kumble and Harbhajan being there.
The English supporters are dismayed and are expecting a 3-0 whitewash. The Indian supporters aren’t pleased either. All the pressure is on India and England has nothing at stake, as Nasser Hussain so aptly puts it:
I’m quite happy for England to have these injuries because it puts the pressure back on India. They should beat England come Wednesday, so England have absolutely nothing to lose. They just need to keep their control, and keep the pressure on the opposition for as long as they can.
Even if India win the series 3-0, little credit will come there way. After all, it was only a vastly understrength English side. If England manages even a draw, it will be a great achievement for them in the face of adversity. So, Team India have nothing to gain and find themselves in a thankless situation. The supporters from both camps are exasperated at the prospect of this nothing series.
England’s tour to India was always going to be a big series. England, coming off a series loss in Pakistan, had it all to prove in India. A Test team has to show that it can compete in all conditions and circumstances – then, and only then can it be recognized as one of the better teams of an era. India, having just lost the series in Pakistan, needed to set things straight - mouth watering prospect for a cricket fan.
Then Ashley Giles, England’s number one spinner, gets injured. Marcus Trescothick withdraws for personal reasons, Michael Vaughan, England’s inspirational captain, gets injured and finally Simon Jones, vital in the scheme of things in the subcontinent, decides to join the injury brigade.
So England’s pace attack is left with Steve Harmison (who hasn’t been as effective off late) and Matthew Hoggard (who relies on movement and wasn’t going to be the most important player in the subcontinent anyway). James Anderson, Liam Plunkett, Shaun Udal, Monty Panesar and Ian Blackwell aren’t exactly expected to set the world on fire in India. How will England then get 20 Indian wickets? It is certainly an uphill task.
A win looks improbable then. How about a draw? The English openers are likely to be Andrew Strauss (in poor form) and Alistair Cook (making his Test debut and again, not expected to set the world on fire). Kevin Pietersen still has a lot to prove. Owais Shah or Paul Collingwood (whoever is selected) do not compare to the Indian batsmen. England would have to rely on Ian Bell and some heroics from Andrew Flintoff. The more you look at the English squad, the more you realize how weak it is.
England’s only hope would be that the young bowlers India has chosen do not fire. Two of R.P.Singh, Piyush Chawla, V.R.V.Singh and Sreesanth would be selected if India decided to go in with five bowlers. If those two do not do a satisfactory job, it will be tougher for India to take 20 wickets despite Kumble and Harbhajan being there.
The English supporters are dismayed and are expecting a 3-0 whitewash. The Indian supporters aren’t pleased either. All the pressure is on India and England has nothing at stake, as Nasser Hussain so aptly puts it:
I’m quite happy for England to have these injuries because it puts the pressure back on India. They should beat England come Wednesday, so England have absolutely nothing to lose. They just need to keep their control, and keep the pressure on the opposition for as long as they can.
Even if India win the series 3-0, little credit will come there way. After all, it was only a vastly understrength English side. If England manages even a draw, it will be a great achievement for them in the face of adversity. So, Team India have nothing to gain and find themselves in a thankless situation. The supporters from both camps are exasperated at the prospect of this nothing series.
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TIF
U19 Debutant
The last time India played 3 spinners was in Mumbai in 2004 against Australia. It was a spinners wicket made to even things out and after Australia lost, Ricky Ponting started to be known as a "whinger" showing some meaningless whinge after the Aussie defeat and blamed it on the "pitch" instead of his batting where they were all out for just 93 chasing 107.SJS said:
Also, Dravid at 3 and Laxman at 5 doesnt seem to be a bad idea as Laxman, usually ends up batting with the lower order, but then this time the lower order is much better in batting than the "lower order" Laxman had to bat with in 2002 in the West Indies tour.
TIF
U19 Debutant
This Indian side wont collapse from 200/4 to 300 all out. The lower order isnt as weak as you think. MS Dhoni, is as good as a regular batsman in batting and Irfan Pathan is an all-rounder now avging almost 30 in tests with the bat. Piyush Chawla, has hit 3 first-class 50s this season and can bat well too and Kumble has 6 first-class 100s. Harbhajan Singh, can also swing his bat for a few 4s and RP Singh can also hang in there. A 200/4 score will eventually end up as a 400-450 all out with this lower-order batting line-up of India. Also, players like Dravid and Laxman, can bat very well with the lower order.Scaly piscine said:
TT Boy
Hall of Fame Member
According to Cricinfo these are the probable teams
India: 1 Wasim Jaffer, 2 Virender Sehwag, 3 Rahul Dravid, 4 Sachin Tendulkar, 5 VVS Laxman, 6 Mahendra Singh Dhoni, 7 Irfan Pathan, 8 Anil Kumble, 9 Harbhajan Singh, 10 Piyush Chawla, 11 Sreesanth
England: 1 Andrew Strauss, 2 Alastair Cook, 3 Ian Bell, 4 Paul Collingwood, 5 Kevin Pietersen, 6 Andrew Flintoff, 7 Geraint Jones, 8 Ian Blackwell, 9 Matthew Hoggard, 10 Shaun Udal, 11 Steve Harmison
I know the pitch is very dry and will offer lots of assistance to the spinners but Shaun Udal can not get a game, he will get massacred!
India: 1 Wasim Jaffer, 2 Virender Sehwag, 3 Rahul Dravid, 4 Sachin Tendulkar, 5 VVS Laxman, 6 Mahendra Singh Dhoni, 7 Irfan Pathan, 8 Anil Kumble, 9 Harbhajan Singh, 10 Piyush Chawla, 11 Sreesanth
England: 1 Andrew Strauss, 2 Alastair Cook, 3 Ian Bell, 4 Paul Collingwood, 5 Kevin Pietersen, 6 Andrew Flintoff, 7 Geraint Jones, 8 Ian Blackwell, 9 Matthew Hoggard, 10 Shaun Udal, 11 Steve Harmison
I know the pitch is very dry and will offer lots of assistance to the spinners but Shaun Udal can not get a game, he will get massacred!
Neil Pickup
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That's not even close to what was said. 200/4 is very rarely translated to 400 in Test cricket against a decent attack, and with the combination of inexperience and aggressive shotplay in that Indian lower order, there is plenty of potential for meltdown. If we get the first four out.
Cook
Strauss
Bell
Collingwood/Shah
Pietersen
*Flintoff
+Jones
Blackwell
Plunkett/Udal/Panesar/Anderson
Hoggard
Harmison
Jaffer
Sehwag
*Dravid
Tendulkar
Laxman
+Dhoni
Pathan
Kumble
Harbhajan
Two of: Sreesanth/RP Singh/VRV Singh/Kaif/Chawla
Cook
Strauss
Bell
Collingwood/Shah
Pietersen
*Flintoff
+Jones
Blackwell
Plunkett/Udal/Panesar/Anderson
Hoggard
Harmison
Jaffer
Sehwag
*Dravid
Tendulkar
Laxman
+Dhoni
Pathan
Kumble
Harbhajan
Two of: Sreesanth/RP Singh/VRV Singh/Kaif/Chawla
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