***Official*** England in India

[tooextracool]

and by atmosphere you mean the crowd?
honestly these are minor things and even if they were to affect any player,

I don't know if the poster meant crowd. But I am surprised you don't know Playing in an empty stadium and a full Eden Gardens are completely different ball games.

oh it is i dont disagree, but no player is going to fail miserably in a country because of having to play in front of a large vociferous crowds. and certainly you would think that if it was affecting his batting, it would also affect his bowling.
if the poster was not talking about crowd and was referring to weather conditions, i think in general SL is hotter and more humid than India and therefore a more difficult proposition to bowl in than a place like India.

 

[Langeveldt]

Sky not covering this winters tour in the UK..

So If English fans want to watch their own team, they are basically stuffed unless they have a load of money? Sounds familiar..

 

[Pratters]

oh it is i dont disagree, but no player is going to fail miserably in a country because of having to play in front of a large vociferous crowds. and certainly you would think that if it was affecting his batting, it would also affect his bowling.

A player might fail miserably despite having the talent to negotiate spin/pace/whatever because he cannot handle or isn't used to crowd noises. It might also effect 1 specific skill area. Different individuals, different aspects which work/dont work for them.

 

[tooextracool]

Any guess on the quality of bowlers Bothan faced..and the bowlers Freddie has faced. Averaging 39 in an era where a batsman of Richards caliber scored 50 is much better than averaging 32 in an era of Sourav Ganguly averaging 42.

After 56 tests - Botham was averaging 36.9 with bat, Kapil 31, with the ball Botham 24, Kapil 29 . Freddie is no where near Botham in terms of ability and close to Kapil in overall performance, but must keep in mind that Kapil bowled majority of his career without any support and in the subcontinent where Flintoff doesn't do much better.

firstly if we are going to play the selective stats game, there is no point in including freddies average from his early years. as has already been stated, in his last 30 test matches he averages 38 with the bat and 25 with the ball. so his stats are much better than kapil dev in their respective primes, and as i said earlier, if his batting performances arent that brilliant as bothams was in their respective eras, then flintoffs bowling average in much more difficult bowling conditions in the current era makes him a superior bowler.

 

[Sanz]

as far as freddie winning or saving a test match is concerned, heres one:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1776
heres another:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1780

heres one where he was responsible for saving a game:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1714

and more:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1726
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1729
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1754

That list is Hillarious at best. That would mean that Kapil dev won or saved almost every test match India didn't lose(and where Kumble didn't play).

 

[tooextracool]

A player might fail miserably despite having the talent to negotiate spin/pace/whatever because he cannot handle or isn't used to crowd noises. It might also effect 1 specific skill area. Different individuals, different aspects which work/dont work for them.

i can hardly see how anyone can be affected by crowds for a consistent period of time. first tour perhaps, after that there is no excuse. and surely the number of people that show up to watch test matches in India is hardly that significant, certainly not even remotely close to the numbers that show up for the ODIs.

 

[Sanz]

so his stats are much better than kapil dev in their respective primes,

Err ?? what is Freddie's record MUCH better after 56 test ?? Kapil had a better bowling average and similar batting average. Freddie is at his peak and that means its downhill in another 2 years or so when he will lose a yard or two in his pace and he is no Imran khan that he will suddenly start averaging in 60 with bat.

 

[Pratters]

i have watched his performances in SA, and i can assure you that a major reason why his 169 is considered to be such a great innings is because of the ineptness of the rest of the batting card. further even when they were 5/58, out of the 5 wickets, one was a run out, one was venkatesh prasad, and one was dravid as an opener(and we know how well that experiement turned out). so it wasnt really great bowling or the conditions that put India on the backfoot.

As I said, whenever he would play you would categorise it as not good seaming conditions and VOILA he cant play in seaming conditions.

Regarding watching every single inning of Tendulkar or extensive highlights which you claim to have done.. I don't buy it. That is irrelevent as your deduction is so basic at being flawed.

It is like saying Einstein could not do division. You want to bring a case for Einstein having specific flaws? Sure they can be discussed. But big sweeping statements count for little.

 

[tooextracool]

That list is Hillarious at best. That would mean that Kapil dev won or saved almost every test match India didn't lose(and where Kumble didn't play).

this is quite ludicrous. how in the world is scoring 73 when the next highest score in the side is 20 and no one managed a 50 from either side in the 2nd inning not a match winning performance?
same with trent bridge, when no one else managed a 100 in the entire game.

 

[Pratters]

i can hardly see how anyone can be affected by crowds for a consistent period of time. first tour perhaps, after that there is no excuse. and surely the number of people that show up to watch test matches in India is hardly that significant, certainly not even remotely close to the numbers that show up for the ODIs.

The point I am debating is different though. I am saying a player can get affected. Not the period he can get affected. We agree to that which I get with your latter comment.

 

[tooextracool]

Err ?? what is Freddie's record MUCH better after 56 test ?? Kapil had a better bowling average and similar batting average. Freddie is at his peak and that means its downhill in another 2 years or so when he will lose a yard or two in his pace and he is no Imran khan that he will suddenly start averaging in 60 with bat.

why 56 tests for both bowlers? because it suits your argument?
fact is that if we use kapils first 56 tests and flintoffs last 30 tests, flintoff has a better statistical record with both bat and ball.

 

[tooextracool]

The point I am debating is different though. I am saying a player can get affected. Not the period he can get affected. We agree to that which I get with your latter comment.

he can get affected, i agree with you on that. but its highly unlikely that a player will continue to be affected by the crowd on every tour that he makes to a particular country.

 

[Pratters]

he can get affected, i agree with you on that. but its highly unlikely that a player will continue to be affected by the crowd on every tour that he makes to a particular country.

And WHERE have I said it is likely.

 

[Sanz]

flintoffs bowling average in much more difficult bowling conditions in the current era makes him a superior bowler.

Nonsense - Botham bowled against much better batsmen as well, Sunny G, Richards, chappells, Miandads, etc vs. SRT , Ponting (who are anyway crap according to you) and that leaves us with Lara, Kallis and Dravid.

At best Flintoff is mariginally inferior to Botham as abowler (who held the record for most no. of wickets at some point in his career.)

 

[tooextracool]

As I said, whenever he would play you would categorise it as not good seaming conditions and VOILA he cant play in seaming conditions.

no i dont do that, i could quite easily say that hes never ever succeeded on seamer friendly conditions then, but that would be a blatant lie as he has on 2 occasions, but exceptions dont really prove much to a general rule of thumb.

Regarding watching every single inning of Tendulkar or extensive highlights which you claim to have done.. I don't buy it. That is irrelevent as your deduction is so basic at being flawed.

It is like saying Einstein could not do division. You want to bring a case for Einstein having specific flaws? Sure they can be discussed. But big sweeping statements count for little.

how is it flawed then? i might not have watched every ball in tendulkars career, and i'll even claim that there are a few innings which i havent watched any highlights off such as most of the games in his debut series against pakistan(other than perhaps a minute on biography shows etc), the first 2 tests of the recent SL-india series and one inning of the 3rd test etc, but a few innings will not make a big difference to this pattern, and you can make a logical conclusion from that small bunch based on the scorecard itself as to whether he succeeded in seamer friendly conditions.

 

[tooextracool]

And WHERE have I said it is likely.

yes and similarly i have never claimed that it will not affect a player at all. ive just mentioned that it wont affect a player for a significant period of time and can therefore be put down as something minor.

 

[Sanz]

why 56 tests for both bowlers? because it suits your argument?
fact is that if we use kapils first 56 tests and flintoffs last 30 tests, flintoff has a better statistical record with both bat and ball.

No because Freddie Flintoff has played on 56 tests so far in his career, Had he played 130 tests I would have compared him with Kapil on the basis of 130 tests. Not to mention the fact that Freddie Flintoff will never last 130 test, Kapil beats him hands down on longetivity.

 

[Pratters]

no i dont do that, i could quite easily say that hes never ever succeeded on seamer friendly conditions then, but that would be a blatant lie as he has on 2 occasions, but exceptions dont really prove much to a general rule of thumb.

But then one could argue you do it to bring in that you are honest and don't lie without effecting the point you are making too much.

how is it flawed then? I have seen all innings and he can't play seam talk

I have seen enough of Tendulkar to know he can play in seam conditions. And when people bring in instances you discount them crossing them out. As I said, you don't question whether Einstein can do additions.

 

[Pratters]

yes and similarly i have never claimed that it will not affect a player at all. ive just mentioned that it wont affect a player for a significant period of time and can therefore be put down as something minor.

If it is the first and only series some one plays it can be a major factor in determining his stats if he gets affected though.

 

[tooextracool]

Nonsense - Botham bowled against much better batsmen as well, Sunny G, Richards, chappells, Miandads, etc vs. SRT , Ponting (who are anyway crap according to you) and that leaves us with Lara, Kallis and Dravid.

err i have never ever said that tendulkar or ponting are crap, Ponting is a fine player against pace bowling, and Sachin is arguably one of the best players of any sort of bowling on a flat pitch. i dont concur with the better batsmen. we have plenty of that today, other than those 5 you also have Martyn, Gilchrist, Sehwag, Laxman, Inzamam, Chanderpaul etc who are all quality players. and as i said earlier, botham had the benefit of much more conducive bowling conditions particularly in England where he played half his test matches. English wickets now are much flatter than what they used to be during bothams time.

At best Flintoff is mariginally inferior to Botham as abowler (who held the record for most no. of wickets at some point in his career.)

that maybe so, but most people would say that flintoff is a better batsman than botham was and also a better batsman and bowler than kapil dev was . but as i stated earlier arguing about this is like arguing who was the best all rounder amongst the big 4. the fact is that flintoffs record is at least comparable with the big 4 and therefore makes him a great all rounder.