***Official*** England in India

[DanielFullard]

As for this combined team.....

Strauss
Shah
Cook
Dravid
Collingwood
Flintoff
G.Jones
Kumble
Sreesanth
Hoggard
Patel

 

[Beleg]

Marks out of 10, anyone?

 

[DanielFullard]

I bet somewhere it does have wicketkeepers who can build a sensible innings, though.

I posted the question in this thread the other day with regards to India having a better Wicketkeeper. Dhoni is not a first-class keeper and even though he is often superb with the bat, is he worth it?

 

[DanielFullard]

Marks out of 10, anyone?

What for?

 

[Pedro Delgado]

What for?

It's either performance on the cricket field or dancing.

 

[DanielFullard]

It's either performance on the cricket field or dancing.

 

[SJS]

Well, the first step is to recognize the problems. Then, return to the fundamentals.

1) Do not play with 5 bowlers when you have on inexperienced and brittle line up. So, VVS should have been included and a fast bowler or Bhajji dropped.

2) Damien Martyn was dropped for many years when he played a Dhoni like shot many many years ago. DROP players who are not disciplined enough for Test Cricket and do not perform rather than succumbing to their star like status.

3) Yuvraj is a one-day player and will never fare well in adverse Test playing conditions. Kaif has a much better chance and he needs to be cultivated.

4) I have no idea why Akash Chopra was dropped - he was a great foil for Sehwag and actually made Sehwag a better player.

5) Sehwag - do not let him get away with "That's the way I play" - which is a euphemism for "I am too lazy to be disciplined" - look at his fitness level. He is a SLOW mover in the field. DROP him and make him go play domestic cricket, if only to teach him a lesson.

6) All players who are dropped (including fitness reasons) MUST perform in domestic cricket before being selected again.

7) DROP Tendulkar until he shows consistent performance in domestic cricket (If u ask that of Ganguly why not him ? After all he is more injury plagued than Ganguly) Bring Kaif in.

8) Make Kumble vice captian - not Sehwag or Yuvraj

9) Hold Greg accountable for current performances by asking the tough questions

The TEAM:
========
Chopra
Sehwag (alternate Jaffer)
Dravid (captain - and the real God of Indian cricket)
Kaif
VVS
Raina
Dhoni/Parthiv
Kumble (vice captain)
Harbhajan/Powar
2 out of Sreesanth/Pathan/Munaf (zaheer as backup)

If you can write this why do you need to rave and rant ??

People will discuss with you rather than treating you like a troll if you stuck to this type of comments. Just an advise from an old foggy. Ignore it if you want

Coming to the points raised by you.

1. Playing 5 bowlers: You are absolutely correct. I have said this here often enough. We should play with four bowlers until we come to a wicket which is so goddamn dead that batsmen are going to be surplus and bowlers dead with workload. I agree VVS should be back. It was a mistake to drop him after what was exxentially a ONE-BALL appearance in the series and it was a good ball too. Its not as if he had played a bit and was struggling.

2. Dropping Dhoni : I dont know about dropping him but he should be censured. I was expecting Dravid to name the batsmen when he said some of our batsmen threw away there wickets. These kind of displays need to be punished not always by dropping though which may be counter productive.

Having said that, I would consider dropping Dhoni if his keeping, while standing up to the stumps, does not improve. How is he better than Parthiv Patel in this regard?

3. Yuvraj vs Kaif : I agree Yuvraj is still not a 'settled' test player. But he has shown a degree of maturity. Not enough I agree. But to judge Kaif as better on the basis of ONE innings (thats all Kaif has to show for a test career that started two years before Yuvraj's if I mistake not) is not fair.

Kaif IS a fighter no doubt but is VERY limited in ability.I suspect Yuvraj is more likely to improve his staying capacity at the crease than Kaif will be able to improve his limited gifts as a batsman. I see Suresh Raina a bigger threat to Yuvraj's batting slot than Kaif. He has both the ability AND the temprament. He could be India's star of the future.

4. Why Chopra was dropped : No one knows that. I can hazard a guess but you wont like that

Chopra was dropped by Ganguly and not by Dravid. I suspect Ganguly was worried about pressure in the middle order with Yuvraj pushing for a place in the test side and Laxman in good nick (he was then). So leaving out Chopra meant creating a slot in the batting order where Yuvraj could be pushed. He did put the seed in Yuvraj's head too.

The fact of the matter is that it is here that Ganguly's troubles started with Chappell.

5. Sehwag's attitude to technique. : Again it is something I have been saying here. Sehwag's problems are not just that he needs to move his feet to counter the movement of the ball and refuses to do it but that the whole country, fans, media, ex cricketers seem content to let him ! Its amazing. Other than Bedi who says he told Sehwag "If you are not going to improve your technique son then that will be the end of you one day." At least Bedi said it on National Television.

Sehwag has a confirmation from everyone, captain, coach, selectors, everyone that this is how he plays and we should accept it.

Of course that is wrong but he should be dropped not because of his technique but because he fails to score. Just like he has been KEPT in the side "inspite" of faulty score because he was scoring. Good technique cant insure a place in the side without good scores but a bad technique can if you keep piling on runs.

As for his fielding, I think he is one of the better slip fielders in the side. In this test we missed him as well as Laxman in the cordon.

6. Dropped players to perform before being taken back : In principal okay but not as a carved in stone regulation. There are players who are in the squad but not in the playing eleven who will come back after a game or two. Lets say, Laxman who was dropped for the second test could be taken back for the third test.

Secondly, domestic cricket is not a great test. If a player fails repeatedly in domestic cricket too, we may conclude he is in very bad form but if a player scores a few runs in this class of cricket it is not always a sign of someone deserving to get back his place. The standards are VERY different.

7. Drop Tendulkar becuase ganguly was dropped : Drop Tendulkar because he is in very poor form and a break may e good for him AND the team is okay by me but to drop him because the same was done to Ganguly is codswallop of the 'domestic cricket" variety I dont want to press the point but stop comparing Ganguly with Tendulkar. It doesnt show Ganguly in better light, it just says something about the person saying Ganguly is what he isnt.

8. Make Kumble Captain : If there is a possibility that Sehwag may not hold his place in the side then you may be correct.

9. Hold Greg accountable : For what ? For scoring runs, not slogging when team has back to the wall, for bowling on the off stump when there are only two fielders on the leg side, for holding sitters ? Have a heart. A coach can do something but finally a team wins because players perform on the field.

Of course the coach is accountable and you can be sure Indian coaches are too. Wright wasnt removed on a whim. The Indian team was sliding and fast.

The team is expected to perform over a period of time and the coach's contribution , or lack of it, is noticed. Lets not assume that those who run the affairs of Indian cricket are absolute dumbos and only those who sit out know whats best.

Although it is in the interest of those sitting out, potential or ex coaches, potential or ex managers, potential or ex selectors, potential or ex board officals to make it sound as if that was the case.

Dont get carried away. They are all the same.

 

[Arjun]

I posted the question in this thread the other day with regards to India having a better Wicketkeeper. Dhoni is not a first-class keeper and even though he is often superb with the bat, is he worth it?

The Indian selectors have been begging, pleading and praying for a genuine wicketkeeper-batsman (even destroying the career of the best wicketkeepers around) and of all their attempts to get one, Dhoni is the only one who's worth it. Parthiv Patel was a bits-and-pieces man, while Karthik couldn't bat any better than one specialist keeper dropped for his lack of batting. He's actually done rather well so far, in a career that's just started, and he's definitely worth persisting with, if you want a wicketkeeper who can bat– and make it count. He's played sensible innings in his career which has just begun, though this one isn't one of them.

 

[SJS]

The Indian selectors have been begging, pleading and praying for a genuine wicketkeeper-batsman (even destroying the career of the best wicketkeepers around) and of all their attempts to get one, Dhoni is the only one who's worth it. Parthiv Patel was a bits-and-pieces man, while Karthik couldn't bat any better than one specialist keeper dropped for his lack of batting. He's actually done rather well so far, in a career that's just started, and he's definitely worth persisting with, if you want a wicketkeeper who can bat– and make it count. He's played sensible innings in his career which has just begun, though this one isn't one of them.

You know Arjun. I watched him very closely throughout this match. Every single ball. He really has a problem standing up. Lots of problems. The ball may land in his gloves or it may miss them by an inch to six, sideways or in height. I am not exaggerating. He has a problem. Even the catches he takes are rarely clean and he is mostly surprised by them. Watch it.

I am not saying he cant improve but as it stands today, it can be expensive particularly in test cricket. And I am NOT talking of the stupid shots he kept playing till someone caught one of them. NO. His batting is okay, if not for number six then for 7 or 8. But its his keeping. Its not ODI's where you managed for years with a total novice like Dravid. Its test matches.

In fact, ODI's seem to have made all of us a bit blind to the virtues of having a good keeper. I have seen and lived through the debate of Taylor vs Knott. But that was not because Knott was a bad keeper. NO. He was very good. Its just that Taylor was perhaps the best the game has seen.

But with Knotts high class keeping (even though not of Taylor's lofty standards) Knott's batting came into consideration but if Knott had been as bad as Dhoni in keeping, Taylor would have played every single test that Knott played.

Today good keeping seems to be at a discount and batting keepers are at a premium. Not a good sign for test matches.

 

[Arjun]

You know Arjun. I watched him very closely throughout this match. Every single ball. He really has a problem standing up. Lots of problems. The ball may land in his gloves or it may miss them by an inch to six, sideways or in height. I am not exaggerating. He has a problem. Even the catches he takes are rarely clean and he is mostly surprised by them. Watch it.

I am not saying he cant improve but as it stands today, it can be expensive particularly in test cricket. And I am NOT talking of the stupid shots he kept playing till someone caught one of them. NO. His batting is okay, if not for number six then for 7 or 8. But its his keeping. Its not ODI's where you managed for years with a total novice like Dravid. Its test matches.

In fact, ODI's seem to have made all of us a bit blind to the virtues of having a good keeper. I have seen and lived through the debate of Taylor vs Knott. But that was not because Knott was a bad keeper. NO. He was very good. Its just that Taylor was perhaps the best the game has seen.

But with Knotts high class keeping (even though not of Taylor's lofty standards) Knott's batting came into consideration but if Knott had been as bad as Dhoni in keeping, Taylor would have played every single test that Knott played.

Today good keeping seems to be at a discount and batting keepers are at a premium. Not a good sign for test matches.

When you're keeping to Kumble, it's obviously a big ask. Only one man could keep to him well, and the selectors didn't pick him and went in for some bits-and-pieces players who could bat better, even if that wasn't much. We've seen Parthiv struggle a few times, we've seen Karthik mess up a little less often (he did, though), we've seen Dasgupta mess up multiple times, and Dravid, oh well, is no wicketkeeper, and even in ODI's, his performance was terrible. Even Ajay Ratra, the fastest wicketkeeper in India, and with the best reflexes for an Indian player after Reetinder Sodhi, also struggled, even in England. It's difficult to read which way a Kumble delivery will turn, how high it will bounce and how fast it will come. However, the emphasis is on having wicketkeepers hwo can bat, which is why you see such wicketkeepers play not only for India, but also in FC sides (Ratra was dropped from North Zone and Bisla, formerly an opener, started pretending to keep, and now Ratra's lost his place in the Haryana side as well) and even other international teams. Ultimately, you've got to realise that there is only one Adam Gilchrist, and he's not the norm- but an all-time legend, and that's hard to find.

So, I must ask-

1. If not Dhoni, then whom would you pick?
2. Why not pick someone like Sanjay Bangar instead of a bits-and-pieces keeper?

 

[Barney Rubble]

You can't really say you know what he was thinking playing the shot - that's going into Richard territory.
Seriously though, I hardly think it was to please the crowd....I'm sure Dhoni backed himself to play the shot well enough. Sure, it shows perhaps a lack of thinking behind the shot and definitely a lack of maturity, but it isn't cowardice. Most of the time, when Dhoni goes for a big hit it pays off...I doubt he does it just to please the crowd, especially at the expense of the team. You'd be hard pressed to find any international cricketer who does that.

Maybe the bit about pleasing the crowd was a bit off, but I personally have no time for any player who shirks responsibility in the way he did. Hence the use of the word "cowardly". He failed to even attempt to stand up and be counted when his team needed him most.

I'll say it again - very, very talented cricketer, but will never be a Test player until he grows a brain. Stunning in ODIs though - he's most likely going to take us apart over the next couple of weeks.

 

[chris.hinton]

And Marc71178 wants his Hero Ashley Giles in the side, Udal and Pansear are better he is third choice now and very Negative Bowler.... i bet you missed him Marc

 

[Barney Rubble]

And Marc71178 wants his Hero Ashley Giles in the side, Udal and Pansear are better he is third choice now and very Negative Bowler.... i bet you missed him Marc

Erm.....no. Why would he be third choice? Udal got some cheap (and for the most part easy) wickets in one innings, Panesar bowled the odd excellent ball but showed his inexperience. Giles is a far better bowler than either of them at the moment, not to mention a far better batsman and fielder.

 

[Dasa]

Maybe the bit about pleasing the crowd was a bit off, but I personally have no time for any player who shirks responsibility in the way he did. Hence the use of the word "cowardly". He failed to even attempt to stand up and be counted when his team needed him most.

I'll say it again - very, very talented cricketer, but will never be a Test player until he grows a brain. Stunning in ODIs though - he's most likely going to take us apart over the next couple of weeks.

...but aren't you overreacting just a touch? I mean, he certainly stood up in the first innings and I'm sure there are countless examples of players playing poor shots and getting out when the team needs them...is it worth crucifying someone for something that happens so often? Actually, looking at the scorecard again, his dismissal in the 2nd innings wasn't at such a crucial time as it seems. He was out when the game was as good as gone....and when his team needed him, in the 1st innings, he curbed his natural instincts and played well. Surely that's worth something?

 

[chris.hinton]

Giles is a better Batsman then Udal and Panesar but as we got 7 class bats plus Simon Jones and Hoggard are no slouches with the bat we dont another all-rounder who spin bowling is very poor averaged 55 in the ashes series come on Giles is great but his time as come and play county cricket for warwicks

 

[chris.hinton]

Dhoni is an idiot- end of Story

 

[James]

Photos from the 3rd Test

 

[GIMH]

How ironic

 

[ramkumar_gr]

Dhoni is an idiot- end of Story

That is just appropriate you called Dhoni an idiot. A gross misfit for Test cricket.

It is the Indian way of selection that brought Dhoni in, Dinesh Kaarthick was a very good wicket-keeper, that India got after the butter-fingered Parthiv and Deep Das Gupta, and also Dinesh is a very decent bat. Yes, i agree , he had a run of poor scores in those inconsequential matches against Zim and Ban. But selectors easily forgot how he showed resolve for his 90+ against Pakistan and also a fighting 40+ against Australia.
We know how long Gilchrist was kept playing ODI despite his successes in that arena.

Dhoni does not have the temperament to play test cricket. Bring back dinesh kaarthick.

 

[Pedro Delgado]

Handsome devil with great hair though. Visit to the nappy wallah might just be the thing for him mind, he can spend more time on his 'keeping and less on his combing.