*Official* England in India 2023/24 #CryMoreTour

[duffer]

Yeah this is a reasonable point. Guess the problem is finding the time for the extra games in the schedule.

During the PSL?

 

[R!TTER]

What advantage though? All I hear about on here is Aus hasn't won a series in England since 2001, but it's suddenly a massive advantage for them? Spare me this crap. The venues were neutral. Are you saying "neutral" means "equally favours quicks and spin heavy attacks"? Because those pitches don't exist.

I don't care if India plays the next WTC final or not, it's clear to me that at least the Indian board cares more about IPL than any other ICC trophy! But even if Pak or SL played in Eng would you be singing the same tune? For some reason it's India & so it's okay?

If you really want to make it more fair you would try to neutralize the conditions aspect of the game as much as possible, over 5 days the conditions would make the biggest difference to any outcome in a game of cricket. This is why it's much easier to win a T20 vs Oz in Oz than say a test over 5-6 days.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Like I said two years ago, they should play it in Rwanda.

 

[Starfighter]

I said conditions overall - not just the pitch. Why do you think India is so hard to bowl in for pacers from SA/NZ/Oz or Eng? Just the pitches or something else as well? It's because it's hot - you don't see 8 or 10 over spells except in cooler seasons. Likewise our spinners don't always bowl longer spells away from Asia because the pacers can bowl longer spells. The fundamental makeup of the attack is different & their roles are different - implicitly pacers in general are at a disadvantage in Asia, that's just a fact. Same goes for spinners outside Asia, not talking about the odd track which can turn square but S.E.N.A. countries in general. I also have an issue with Eng hosting every WTC final in 2 years - first of all the cycle should be 4 years. More importantly finals should have at least one home & away test between the finalists - why is that not more fair?

Guess what? India doesn't have a monopoly on heat. What make might a general disadvantage for fast bowlers in Asia? The lack of grass and moisture in the pitches. That's significantly controlled by the groundsman.

Same goes overseas. Even if the conditions in England are cool and good for growing grass during the season, they can still cut it off. Somerset used to do that to great effect in the County Championship - that's how Leach got a career.

 

[Socerer 01]

Your definition of neutral, looking at your venue-based complaints, seems to be a venue that favours your side. A for last years' final while I'd concede the usually grassy pitch favoured Australia more than normal, it doesn't mean it was't a neutral venue in the normally understood sense.

The Oval pitch last year was dry underneath and took sharp turn - no one forced India to drop Ashwin. And even given it was grassier than usual, India don't have a bad pace attack - contrarily, it's a pretty good one. Just wasn't good on day 1.

At ground ENG: Kennington Oval, London

Start of match date between 27 Feb 2013 and 27 Feb 2024

Ordered by wickets taken (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
SCJ Broad (ENG)	2013-2023	9	16	271.1	53	866	28	4/41	7/86	30.92	3.19	58.1	0	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	2013-2023	8	15	269.4	81	710	24	4/95	5/99	29.58	2.63	67.4	0	0
CR Woakes (ENG)	2013-2023	6	11	187.0	51	562	23	4/50	7/111	24.43	3.00	48.7	0	0
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2023	7	10	152.0	15	627	17	4/45	4/54	36.88	4.12	53.6	0	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	2018-2023	3	6	165.0	21	458	15	4/79	7/258	30.53	2.77	66.0	0	0
MA Starc (AUS)	2013-2023	4	8	126.2	16	528	15	4/82	8/182	35.20	4.17	50.5	0	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	2013-2023	4	8	124.0	24	337	14	4/41	5/60	24.07	2.71	53.1	0	0
MR Marsh (AUS)	2015-2023	3	6	70.2	11	250	13	5/46	7/86	19.23	3.55	32.4	1	0
OE Robinson (ENG)	2021-2022	2	4	78.3	24	232	12	5/49	7/89	19.33	2.95	39.2	1	0
BA Stokes (ENG)	2015-2023	6	6	92.0	13	365	12	3/39	3/39	30.41	3.96	46.0	0	0
PJ Cummins (AUS)	2019-2023	3	6	108.5	16	434	11	3/83	5/151	39.45	3.98	59.3	0	0

Do note the presence of 'Nathan Lyon' and 'Ravindra Jadeja' at comparable averages to most of the fast bowlers.

but i was told Jadeja was a hackfraud who can’t bowl outside of Indian dustbowls????

 

[Son Of Coco]

At home, England only cheat against Australia. In recent memory, I can't recall an England Ashes where they haven't had an outrageous cheating incident. I mean, it's fair because it's what England are, but Australia not losing a series there in yonkers, despite the cheating, is a real moral victory. None of this 4-1 capitulation style stuff that England like to throw up when touring.

1? Don't flatter them mate. They usually get bagelled here.

 

[R!TTER]

What make might a general disadvantage for fast bowlers in Asia? The lack of grass and moisture in the pitches. That's significantly controlled by the groundsman.

The pitches are generally slower & it doesn't swing much with the new ball. Again a lot to do with heat.

Same goes overseas. Even if the conditions in England are cool and good for growing grass during the season, they can still cut it off.

Right & why we can't we have two tests between finalists in their home/away venue, like UEFA semis?

 

[Burgey]

I don't care if India plays the next WTC final or not, it's clear to me that at least the Indian board cares more about IPL than any other ICC trophy! But even if Pak or SL played in Eng would you be singing the same tune? For some reason it's India & so it's okay?

If you really want to make it more fair you would try to neutralize the conditions aspect of the game as much as possible, over 5 days the conditions would make the biggest difference to any outcome in a game of cricket. This is why it's much easier to win a T20 vs Oz in Oz than say a test over 5-6 days.

No, I don't care who's playing in it. As I said, it should always be at Lord's imo. But no matter where it's played, if the venue isn't a home ground for either of the teams playing, it's a neutral venue ffs.

 

[Starfighter]

The pitches are generally slower & it doesn't swing much with the new ball. Again a lot to do with heat.

The pitches are slow in England too. And if there was more live grass on Indian pitches, they'd be quicker, like the Day/Night match against Bangladesh. Many bowlers rely mainly on seam movement these days anyway.

 

[ataraxia]

outside of playing on Mars idk how you could get a completely 100% neutral test for a 1 off test

I think on Mars the pitch might be a little dusty (and hence subcontinent-friendly) tbh. Then again, it's pretty bouncy so it may favour overspinners more.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Play it on a cement wicket in Timbuktu.

 

[R!TTER]

Pretty hard to play on Mars if you don't have oxygen to breathe in, don't you think? Also weaker gravity means you'll have bouncers going through the rough & maybe 170kph fast bowlers if they could build a dome & play in there? Not 100% about the (top)speed part, wrt gravity, but they'd definitely get more bounce.

 

[Chin Music]

Dawson probably should've come in, and otherwise they could've just tried an extra pacer anyway (Wood or a Lions pacer call up), since the bowlers all seem to know how to swing a bat.

Fact is, this time around England gave away more runs and took wickets more slowly compared to 2021, which honestly doesn't make them look that impressive even accounting for pitch differences.

I think India seem to have found a couple of very promising young bats, added to the fact that the pitches are less helpful. I wasn't entirely sure that the 3 specialist spinner pick for the first couple of tests was a great idea either.

 

[Xix2565]

I think India seem to have found a couple of very promising young bats, added to the fact that the pitches are less helpful. I wasn't entirely sure that the 3 specialist spinner pick for the first couple of tests was a great idea either.

Pitch factor does matter, but even then you could definitely say England should've pivoted a bit towards fielding more bowlers. The English spinners lacked control compared to India, and the English pacers haven't been good enough to make up for that. It's hard to exert control over the runscoring if Root is a 5th option who's getting the overs of a 4th option bowler at times. No amount of batting can make up for conceding even more runs with the bowling.

 

[danzydab]

Dawson probably should've come in, and otherwise they could've just tried an extra pacer anyway (Wood or a Lions pacer call up), since the bowlers all seem to know how to swing a bat.

Fact is, this time around England gave away more runs and took wickets more slowly compared to 2021, which honestly doesn't make them look that impressive even accounting for pitch differences.

Root was playing as a spinner first 3 tests,Dawson was an absolute must, he is an allrounder that can bat at no.7 and was the best county spinner last year and avged 40 with the bat.Dawson also has the consistent control that Hartley lacked due to his experience.
Not picking him proved to cost England the series.

Picking one seamer in the most seamer friendly pitch in vizag was also a wrong call
In this test, picking two medium paced seamers was also an error. A quick like Atkinson or Wood would've been effective on a pitch with alot of variable bounce, a quick fast bowler had a higher chance of getting tail enders like kuldeep out early which would've prevented the Indian comeback and been game, set match England.

 

[Ashes81]

We all know that the WTC Final should be at Lords for the following reasons.
1. It's the Home of cricket and a good crowd is guaranteed whoever is playing.

2. Logistically it makes sense as all teams are free to play during the English summer. You have to plan these events in advance without knowing who will be in the final.

3. If it was played elsewhere, all the Colonels, ex Army Majors etc and other elderly upper class Englishmen would have to get up to watch it in the middle of the night, to watch 2 countries that they used to rule over play in a third country that we used to rule.

And as the saying goes, that's just not cricket.

 

[CricAddict]

Root was playing as a spinner first 3 tests,Dawson was an absolute must, he is an allrounder that can bat at no.7 and was the best county spinner last year and avged 40 with the bat.Dawson also has the consistent control that Hartley lacked due to his experience.
Not picking him proved to cost England the series.

Picking one seamer in the most seamer friendly pitch in vizag was also a wrong call
In this test, picking two medium paced seamers was also an error. A quick like Atkinson or Wood would've been effective on a pitch with alot of variable bounce, a quick fast bowler had a higher chance of getting tail enders like kuldeep out early which would've prevented the Indian comeback and been game, set match England.

Yes, I too do think England with Dawson would have been very difficult to beat for this young Indian team. That's a major blunder by the English selectors.

 

[Chin Music]

Pitch factor does matter, but even then you could definitely say England should've pivoted a bit towards fielding more bowlers. The English spinners lacked control compared to India, and the English pacers haven't been good enough to make up for that. It's hard to exert control over the runscoring if Root is a 5th option who's getting the overs of a 4th option bowler at times. No amount of batting can make up for conceding even more runs with the bowling.

This was the issue with playing rookie spinners who had barely played that many games. Of course they wouldn't have the same control compared with the Indian spinners. Even experienced spinners of the past have barely managed that or they are county rollers who barely spin the ball more than a club hack like me! Yes, the strategic structure of what they picked wasn't really good enough, but that said what it boils down to was that India's batters and bowlers have collectively been comfortably better over the series and few of us have predicted much different.

 

[Daemon]

2. Logistically it makes sense as all teams are free to play during the English summer. You have to plan these events in advance without knowing who will be in the final.

Cnerd rn

 

[NotMcKenzie]

I said conditions overall - not just the pitch. Why do you think India is so hard to bowl in for pacers from SA/NZ/Oz or Eng? Just the pitches or something else as well? It's because it's hot - you don't see 8 or 10 over spells except in cooler seasons. Likewise our spinners don't always bowl longer spells away from Asia because the pacers can bowl longer spells. The fundamental makeup of the attack is different & their roles are different - implicitly pacers in general are at a disadvantage in Asia, that's just a fact. Same goes for spinners outside Asia, not talking about the odd track which can turn square but S.E.N.A. countries in general. I also have an issue with Eng hosting every WTC final in 2 years - first of all the cycle should be 4 years. More importantly finals should have at least one home & away test between the finalists - why is that not more fair?

You don't tend to anyway even in countries that favour fast bowling.