***Official*** Australia in England (The Ashes)

[Scaly piscine]

Butcher at least has international experience, some success against Australia, and can be relied on not to throw his wicket away pointlessly, even if he isn't rolling in natural talent. Key hasn't done much in test cricket, but he's not been a complete failure either. When it comes down to it, if England were in desperate need he'd be a fair pick. Joyce is clearly the top uncapped batsmen in the CC, and everyone (including Warne) has picked him out as a future test player. Collingwood averages 32 in first class cricket, and the same in ODIs, where he's been a fair finisher but has never looked test class with the bat. His bowling wouldn't really be of much use unless the pitch was a really nasty one, and while his fielding would be useful you don't make a test side on fielding alone. As a pure batsmen, Collingwood isn't even close.

As others have said that description of Butcher is the complete opposite of what he's like. Key has been rubbish bar one flat-track double ton and just plonks his front pad down the track which will be easy lbw fodder for Lee (or anyone who bowls medium pace - like Gillepsie or McGrath). You can't take anything out of Colly's first class average because he's played for numerous seasons on one of the most bowler friendly grounds on country cricket with one of the most useless batting lineups in country cricket and as we know there are plenty of examples of people who do better in Tests than county cricket. Also you can't take much out of ODI cricket because most of the time he's not got any chance to bat properly and ODIs are different games anyway.

 

[tooextracool]

Key has been rubbish bar one flat-track double ton and just plonks his front pad down the track which will be easy lbw fodder for Lee (or anyone who bowls medium pace - like Gillepsie or McGrath). .

so you missed the 93* and 83 then id presume?

 

[aussie]

Like they did on Pietersen?

what you reckon Joyce will come in and do a KP, come on lets be realistic......

 

[aussie]

Jones is a liability and we cannot afford to have him in the team against quality opposition, against lesser sides his errors are less important. TBH I haven't seen Read bat in a long time so he may have improved, but his test showing was far from encouraging. So yes, perhaps Prior is the answer, do you have any better suggestions?

FWIW I don't think a single change will be made to the England 12.

well i say give Geraint one more chance, if he fails then i'd begin to question his place...

 

[Shane Warne]

As others have said that description of Butcher is the complete opposite of what he's like. Key has been rubbish bar one flat-track double ton and just plonks his front pad down the track which will be easy lbw fodder for Lee (or anyone who bowls medium pace - like Gillepsie or McGrath)..

Good post up until that point.

 

[Barney Rubble]

what you reckon Joyce will come in and do a KP, come on lets be realistic......

Many people (including me) were sceptical that even KP would come in and do a KP.

Joyce has averaged over 80 this season in FC cricket, has faced Warne and done well, and deserves a chance while he is in the form of his life, not this winter when he hasn't played for a couple of months and has got out of nick.

Who knows, maybe it isn't the form of his life? We'll never know unless he gets the chance.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

havent watched much of mark butcher have you?

I've seen as much of him as most people outside of Australia would have, I'd say. Obviously like every batsman he did get himself out from time to time, but if I were an English fan I'd be much more comfortable with him in the team than someone like Collingwood. At the very least, his extensive experience and ability to grind out an innings that he has shown a number of times would be valuable in some a fragile and inexperienced batting lineup. As you say, it's moot because he isn't fit. It was simply a hypothetical of someone who would be a better choice than Collingwood under the circumstances.

Joyce or Key would be the best options if England genuinely want an extra batsmen over Giles. I would lean towards Joyce.

 

[luckyeddie]

You should be completely flacid and in need of a viagra overdose.

He's an average county journeyman.

I think that Collingwood is very much an above-average county journeyman, who just happens to bust a gut every time he goes out to play. That's what counts. You can have all the tools in the world, but without a spine, you are nothing.

 

[kendall]

Joyce or Key would be the best options if England genuinely want an extra batsmen over Giles. I would lean towards Joyce.

Joyce is obviously a complete uknown and Key i really cant see ever being a constistant performer at test level. I would not make any changes yet except maybe drop geriant Jones as i have said England must not panic

 

[tooextracool]

I've seen as much of him as most people outside of Australia would have, I'd say. Obviously like every batsman he did get himself out from time to time, but if I were an English fan I'd be much more comfortable with him in the team than someone like Collingwood. At the very least, his extensive experience and ability to grind out an innings that he has shown a number of times would be valuable in some a fragile and inexperienced batting lineup. As you say, it's moot because he isn't fit. It was simply a hypothetical of someone who would be a better choice than Collingwood under the circumstances.

Joyce or Key would be the best options if England genuinely want an extra batsmen over Giles. I would lean towards Joyce.

oh i would have had butcher in my side as soon as thorpe was dropped to be honest. but i simply cannot see how anyone can say that butcher can be relied upon to not throw his wicket away, when the fact was that butcher was an absolute master of that, especially after he'd gotten past 50. and i find it hard to believe that anyone could say that butcher is not talented, when he is gifted with one of the best techniques and mental toughness in all of england.

 

[tooextracool]

Joyce is obviously a complete uknown and Key i really cant see ever being a constistant performer at test level. I would not make any changes yet except maybe drop geriant Jones as i have said England must not panic

i'd have to agree with this actually.
there are at least a few positives for england, most importantly that glenn mcgrath wont get another ground thats custom made for him as Lords was. our openers showed that with a bit of application it isnt so hard to see off mcgrath and lee, and strauss in particular showed no real sign of that weakness that has troubled him all summer.
so i'd say that they should go in with the same side for the 2nd test, but if they havent worked out how to play warne, and if hoggard continues to bowl the worst hes ever bowled in his international career, then we have no hope.

 

[kendall]

If Hoggard bowls poorey in the next test then i think there would be a case for bringing in Tremlett.

I dont know if this has been discussed already but can someone give any good reason why Vaugan is not alowed too play for Yorkshire this week?

 

[The Baconator]

If Hoggard bowls poorey in the next test then i think there would be a case for bringing in Tremlett.

I dont know if this has been discussed already but can someone give any good reason why Vaugan is not alowed too play for Yorkshire this week?

He is allowed to, he's just opted to have some net sessions with Fletcher instead.

 

[Shane Warne]

If Hoggard bowls poorey in the next test then i think there would be a case for bringing in Tremlett.

I dont know if this has been discussed already but can someone give any good reason why Vaugan is not alowed too play for Yorkshire this week?

He thinks he's too good for them.

 

[kendall]

I am very suprised and disapointed by that he clearly needs match practice, nets is just not the same

 

[Hanuma]

If Hoggard bowls poorey in the next test then i think there would be a case for bringing in Tremlett.

/QUOTE]

something i would like to see.

 

[Barney Rubble]

If Hoggard bowls poorey in the next test then i think there would be a case for bringing in Tremlett.

/QUOTE]

something i would like to see.

Alright Hanuma? That was quick.

(for all the rest of you, I just directed him here from another forum)

 

[Hanuma]

i know
quick to make my first gaff with the quotes too.

btw...can you get pics in your sigs here?

 

[Barney Rubble]

i know
quick to make my first gaff with the quotes too.

btw...can you get pics in your sigs here?

Don't think so. I haven't even bothered with an avatar, so I wouldn't know!

 

[Hanuma]

Don't think so. I haven't even bothered with an avatar, so I wouldn't know!

i only use them so i can find my last post quicker.