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**Official** 2004 Natwest Series (Eng, NZL, WI)

meatspx

U19 Cricketer
Don't drop Vaughan - just drop him down the order to #4 or even #5. He's too good of a batsman to discard - i'd rather have him to come in with 15 overs to play instead of someone like Key/Collingwood.

England need to give him a change in role or scenery - he's too good of a batsman to throw away.
 

meatspx

U19 Cricketer
Macka said:
Andre Adams called up for NZ

Thoughts? He obviously has talent and has played well against the West Indies before, He's been out of favour ever since that game against the Aussies in the world cup (still trying to forget everything about that game except Shand Bond).
Cairns must be borderline and Tuffey quite clearly injured for this to happen. I would not play him unless it is clear he will be needed.

NZ should try and bat first in thursday's game - will provide a stern batting test and an opportunity to sort out an appropriate mindset if we loose the toss in the final.

Perhaps Fleming & Marshall can be rested or dropped down the order - elevating Styris, McMillan, Cairns & Oram. Our lower-order is quite concerningly short of match practice.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
I've heard from both Fleming & Bracewell that they want to keep the winning streak going so I doubt many players will be rested.

Cairns is apparently keen to play so that means Adams will miss out.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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marc71178 said:
I'm not Neil, but I actually looked at that team and think that if Flintoff could bowl then that 11 isn't too bad - 5 bowlers who are all more or less reliable.

Mind you, add Bell in for Key, and rearrange the order slightly (Strauss 3, Flintoff 4, Bell 5, Collingwood 6) or Strauss opens, and numbers 3 to 7 are flexible.

Then you have 5 front line bowlers plus 4 useful 2 or 3 over stand-ins, and a solid batting line-up.
I don't see the sense in batting a player like Collingwood at 6. He's not particularly suited to the late overs and I'd much prefer him to have time to build an innings at 3 or 4. With the firepower of Trescothick, Jones and Flintoff there, he could be crucial in the role of rotation of strike.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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tooextracool said:
thats what i meant.....the fact that bravo and smith got smashed all over the place in the slog overs while best didnt just goes to show how handy another frontline bowler would have been.
Agreed. One can only hope that the selectors take a clue from the fact that the bowlers were the only ones who bowled well. You need to pick players who can do a job to do the job. That said, Dwayne Bravo is a far better bowler than what he showed today.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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garage flower said:
Sorry to sound negative again, but I think that's more a case of being bad at defending than good at chasing.[/QUOTEIt's a case of having strength in batting rather than bowling. The bowling is inexperienced and the batting is proven to be strong more often than not. Therefore, when you know exactly how much you have to make, it's easier for a batting team than when you set a total and then ask inexperienced bowlers to defend it.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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Blakey said:
Finally they get Flintoff. Why on earth would they choose only 2 front line bowlers?
Jermaine Lawson has the flu and Ravi Rampaul is shot on confidence. No real choice except to bring in another allrounder, the uncapped Darren Sammy.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Collingwood to me, likes to play a similar batting role to that of Hamish Marshall. Marshall has been very successful at #3 & England desperately need to find a #3 so perhaps England should try Collingwood there?
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
The English, as a bowling side, are suffering from the same weakness as the Indians, in the middle overs. They don't have a bowler good enough to even bowl 5 good overs. If Collingwood has to bowl again, he has to work a great deal on his bowling, simply because the way he bowled in the last two matches, the team won't win a match! Clearly, a sign of lack of practice. The same can also be said about Michael Vaughan.

If the bowling side is a man down, the fielders have to support them. That was clearly lacking. Loose throws, inadequate backing up, slow response on the field and a total lack of co-ordination was responsible for converting as many as 4 run-out chances to runs, 7 singles to twos and so on. After Vaughan dropped Bichel or Bevan in PE in Feb 2003, which dropped the match, and their chance of going ahead, this is what Alan Wilkins said- actual quote:
Spoken by Alan Wilkins on ESPNSTAR's follow Through
Would you find an Australian named Michael Vaughan? He can't catch! He looked an absolute dud out there!
He didn't drop any, but he was definitely not doing much to help the cause. Nor was Geraint Jones, who seems to be wicketkeeping for the first time, since he made several elementary errors, which a good wickie wouldn't make. Never mind taking catches or completing stumpings or blocking byes, can't he even HOLD the ball? You wanted a wicketkeeper batsman and chose him- you now have another Rahul Dravid instead. That option is only good if you have 5 frontline bowlers. Chris Read was definitely missed.

That said, Jones could play as a specialist batsman (just like Stewart), with Read in the side, in place of Key. What has he done great? all I have seen of him are slow scores, lack of concentration and no help on the field, except for two slides. Jones can hit more 4's and 6's than Key, can't he? No doubt Read's batting is suspect, but at least one place in the team is used properly.

For England, the positives were the bowling of Harmison and the batting of Flintoff, but when they are out so early, negatives outnumber the positives. Blackwell, who has the ability to turn a match on its head by some hard hitting, as in the Champions Trophy in SL, was woefully out of form. An in-form Blackwell could be quite a handful. Clarke, Key and Anthony were just not good enough for the middle order. Looks like Graham Thorpe should be convinced out of retirement, but if he makes himself available, why don't they pick him? The aggressive, risk-taking Solanki needs a recall- of all the middle order bats tried so far, he seems to be the only one with any real talent, and he is effective on the field. Strauss has done rather well in this series and deserved the century. The biggest disappointment was Vaughan- he struggled a lot.

As for the bowling, Harmison did bowl a lot better than in past ODI's and should appear regularly if England have to take 10 wickets. Yet again, Anderson's weaknesses against quality batting sides have been shown up and he has to do something about bowling to good batting sides- he's not going to get average batting opposition all the time, nor will he bowl on typical English grass pitches more often. A little intelligence will help more. Flintoff was definitely missed. Gough still proves that he is a competent ODI bowler in this side. Mahmood had a hard debut, but hopefully he has learnt something. But the batsmen- call them to bowl, and they'll bowl rubbish. That needs a lot of work.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
Andrew Strauss - puzzlingly good one-day-international form despite average domesic one-day record.

Could it be more because he has the temprement, and that is more important than any number of runs in County Cricket?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Tim said:
Collingwood to me, likes to play a similar batting role to that of Hamish Marshall. Marshall has been very successful at #3 & England desperately need to find a #3 so perhaps England should try Collingwood there?
Maybe that's the answer.

Him 3
Strauss / Vaughan 4
Flintoff 5
Bell (?) 6
Jones 7
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Well with Pietersen coming into the mix soon I think there will be a few changes.

I think Strauss would move up to #3, Pietersen in at #4, Flintoff at #5 meaning that Collingwood stays at #6.

I honestly don't think Collingwood is the right player to be coming in at #6..NZ tried that with Vincent & on most occassions it failed badly.
If Collingwood works at #3, Strauss at #4, Pietersen at #5 etc..then I don't see the problem of Flintoff dropping to #6.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Tim said:
Im still concerned about Vettori....he just doesn't look like improving.
I think it's time we took Bruce Martin to Bangladesh. The selectors actually admitted that they should have taken either Martin or Wiseman for the test series.

I think Peter Fulton will get a go in the ODI's before Ross Taylor does. Fulton will be in his 3rd full season this year whereas Taylor is still only 19 and probably needs another season yet IMO.

Butler could play both ODI's & Tests but i think the writing is on the wall for Franklin that he could well be only suitable for tests.
You need to look no further than Jesse Ryder is you want a pinch-hitter at the top of the order..but he'll need to work bloody hard this season if he wants to get back into the frame for NZ selection.
Something I agree on.

I would have taken Martin as a 2nd spinner had it been a 16 man squad in the Test squad to England. I don't see why both of them can't play in the same team.

I would swing the axe towards McMillan and give him a season in domestic cricket and buck up his ideas.

-----------------------------

Well done Flintoff and Strauss for their tons and credit to Flintoff for two consective ODI 100s unfortunatly it wasn't to be and the Wi sealed their spot in the final.

I wonder how packed Lords will be with no England in it?
 

Craig

World Traveller
chris.hinton said:
Neil,

Because England have crashed out, do you think that the selectors have got the formula right for one day cricket?

BRING BACK SOLANKI!!!!!11
Chris I think there is about as much chance as Solanki or Martin-Jenkins being called up as there is off Michael Schumacher ever leaving Ferarri.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
Could it be more because he has the temprement, and that is more important than any number of runs in County Cricket?
So, prey, how can someone be good enough for international cricket and not good enough for domestic?
 

tooextracool

International Coach
i will sum up the reasons why england did not make the finals....
1) the squad selection- before the series started i was extrememly critical about the selection of robert key,geraint jones,blackwell,mcgrath and clarke. and despite all those people who "backed" the selectors decisions about the inclusion of key and jones in particular they have all failed miserably.
key failed,for no fault of his own....you could have predicted at the start of the series that he would because he just isnt cut out to play ODI cricket. i ask you now, as i did before the series, will key be considered as a replacement for an injured test player now? i dont think so......
the most stupid move on the part of the selectors yet was the inclusion of geraint jones....it was unnecessary and if there was anyone that was missed in that middle order this series it was chris read. chris read has been a sensible middle order batsman and has not once but twice been involved in winning a game.
blackwell,clarke and mcgrath failed for obvious reasons and i do hope that these 3 players are never considered to play ODI cricket ever again.
2) michael vaughan- surely the time has come for the axe to fall? hes failed continuosly for 1.5 years and is a liability to the side.....he cannot be carried around just for his captaincy. there are obvious faults in both his footwork and temperament, he must get these sorted out if he wants to maintain his test place as well. you cannot play expansive cover drives of wide balls without moving your feet whatsover .
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
chris.hinton said:
my 11 for India plus 4 others for the Natwest Challenge

Trescothick
Vaughan
Bell
Strauss
Flintoff
G Jones
Collingwood
Martin-Jenkins
Gough
Anderson
Harmison
jones and vaughan should be replaced.....
 

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