**Official** 2004 Natwest Series (Eng, NZL, WI)

[Tom Halsey]

Bell isn't good enough?

What, being a very good bat, and a very accurate medium pace swinger? Get off.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I said that Powell would be picked and HE has

That doesn't mean he's any good.

bell is not good enough Yet

If only he were half the allrounder Solanki is.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Powell and Clarke picked together... do the similarities end there?

 

[anzac]

What a load of rubbish Mingster..I agree with what your trying to say, but the way in which your saying it is very immature.

seconded...............

 

[anzac]

The sooner Ross Taylor & Jesse Ryder press their cases for national selection the better.

These boys are aggressive & have no fear, yet they also have a huge amount of skill. We really need that in the test side at the moment.

hmmmmm....................not so sure on that.............

depends on what you are referring to....
*aggressive
*no fear
*skill

I'd go for 2 & 3 but IMO we have a problem with a little too much aggression in the batting - boom or bust & just as frail...............

so it could also come down to Attitude & Application - Taylor performed well during the domestic season & could be a contender for the Test squad,

Ryder I'd probably look at as an impact batsman in the limited overs format to start with...............until he shows he can temper his aggression with a little more application towards putting big scores together in the domestic Championship games

 

[anzac]

Eh...4 specialist batsmen? Is it just me that can't count?

Papps, Astle, Fleming, Marshall, Styris if you want to stack the top order with specialist batsmen.

No more allrounders? You're a joke. Yet you say you want Cairns, Harris and Oram in there. Hmmmm....good thinking there.

Sinclair. He doesn't deserve it yet. If McMillan fails this series, then fine. And he can't bat anywhere in the order. Bat him at 5, and he will crumble. He either needs to open or 3.

he does have a point Mingster as Bracewell has said that Astle will open in ODIs, and that means that he will either partner Fleming or Papps..............

the logical route would be to have Fleming at #3, but I doubt they will drop him down as he has been so dominant at the top of the order, whereas the Astle / Papps combination is untried..............& they have been using Marshall at #3 so I doubt Papps would get that spot.........

likewise he is saying that if you take out McMillan then that leaves you with only 4 'specialists' unless you bring in Sinclair.............I don't know if he would crumble at #5, but I do think he perhaps starts his innings a bit slowly to be batting that low & maybe run out of overs b4 making a contribution - he has been more effective the past domestic season either opening or at #3 as you say..........

so perhaps we are in the unusual position for this ODI squad that we are short of middle order options & too top heavy regarding players better suited to the top order?????

so far as allrounders go Cairns & Oram are enough IMO - get some specialists for the batting & bowling - we bemoaned the lack of such players in the WC.....

Depending on the top order solution I'm ok with Macca as my #5, but I'd be telling him that as soon as I see him bring out that bloody reverse sweep with anything less than 50+ beside his name then he can kiss his ODIs goodbye.............

My preference however is for Fleming, Papps, Astle, Marshall, Styris, Cairns, Oram, Vettori, Hopkins, Franklin, Tuffey...............based upon McCullum not being available for the finals, & Marshall to possibly still bat at either #3 or #5 depending on how the innings is going.............

 

[anzac]

While not quite as aggro as Mingster, I am a bit concerned at the level of derision building up towards Butler. Sure, he's often only 5kph above medium, has a bit of an ego and is often whacked, but he still has a place in the wider scheme of things.

As someone who watches a bit of domestic cricket, Butler is one of the few guys that I can actually squint my eyes and see someone with the raw materials to bowl at international level. With 70% of them (including most of the prolific wicket-takers) I can't even get that far.

my criticism is that unless he changes his bowling length I do not think he is suited to ODIs...............Tests I can live with him being used as an "in yer face" / impact bowler...........

I just think that perhaps is all came a bit too easy for him & he hasn't had to make any changes, both at ND & Int levels...........I was hoping that the exit from ODIs after the PAK series might have given him a wake up call, but now he gets back in again thru the back door & nothing seems to have changed much.............

 

[Mingster]

he does have a point Mingster as Bracewell has said that Astle will open in ODIs, and that means that he will either partner Fleming or Papps..............

OMG, does that neccessarily mean that Papps or Astle will miss out because there is not enough positions while McMillan is playing like crap at 5? HELL NO.

Astle, Papps and Fleming at the top. Swap them like you want, but either way that's my Top 3.

And where the hell did Braces say that Astle is opening?

 

[Mingster]

Vettori still earn's his place in the ODI side...at least in the ODI's if he's not taking wickets, he can slow the run-rate down..which he usually does.

What a load of rubbish Mingster..I agree with what your trying to say, but the way in which your saying it is very immature.

Sorry. Just haven't posted in a long time.

 

[anzac]

OMG, does that neccessarily mean that Papps or Astle will miss out because there is not enough positions while McMillan is playing like crap at 5? HELL NO.

Astle, Papps and Fleming at the top. Swap them like you want, but either way that's my Top 3.

And where the hell did Braces say that Astle is opening?

I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree with the theory, just that in the 1 warm up match that Papps played in he opened with Astle (Flem didn't play).............IMO if they were looking at them as the top 3 then IMO they should have had a match with their revised lineup to see if the combinations work.........

I read the comments re Astle pre tour about the time of the last fitness tests........

 

[Mingster]

The batting lineup is pretty sorted if you ask me, the bowling attack looks more dis-orientated.

Franklin and Tuffey are the certainties, Tuffey said in the paper the seam is finally coming right now from the hand with the white 'Kook balls. Hopefully those two can give us a decent start.

Cairns and Oram the change bowlers, with Styris and Harris/Vettori the variation bowlers. Pretty good attack that is suited to ODIs.

 

[Mingster]

i would not say WI have a stronger batting lineup... our ODI team is ALOT better than our Test team imho... i mean we proved that in our last ODI games...

I really really hope ross taylor is bought in to the ODI team.. and not sure who the spinner will b to replace veto..

Adams.. well he has been playing some good cricket this year and deserves a spot..
Mills.. hes been good in the ODIS.. he just does not know how to bowl at the death

Ummmm....when has Adams played good cricket this year? Andre Adams, unless he can land 2 balls on the same spot for 2 balls in a row, should not play for the Black Caps again.

 

[anzac]

The batting lineup is pretty sorted if you ask me, the bowling attack looks more dis-orientated.

Franklin and Tuffey are the certainties, Tuffey said in the paper the seam is finally coming right now from the hand with the white 'Kook balls. Hopefully those two can give us a decent start.

Cairns and Oram the change bowlers, with Styris and Harris/Vettori the variation bowlers. Pretty good attack that is suited to ODIs.

yep it looks like it has the bases covered - I'm hoping for some penetration to go with it.........

 

[Mingster]

yep it looks like it has the bases covered - I'm hoping for some penetration to go with it.........

Who needs penetration. We just need to contain. And with Trescothick and Flintoff out, we should win it. If we don't, we are really ****.

 

[Macka]

Vettori needs some pressure placed on him, he hasn't bowled well in recent years. He just doesn't take wickets, ok so his economy rate is quite good, I'll give you that.

Eh...4 specialist batsmen? Is it just me that can't count?
Papps, Astle, Fleming, Marshall, Styris if you want to stack the top order with specialist batsmen.

I doubt very much that Papps will play with Astle back, he is really only there as cover for the openers, I don't think he scores quite quickly enough or has enough shots to bat anywhere else. Fleming has done well opening recently, and Astle has said he doesn't want to bat at 3, or anywhere else. Papps only covered for Fleming in the last warm up game since he didn't play.

No more allrounders? You're a joke. Yet you say you want Cairns, Harris and Oram in there. Hmmmm....good thinking there.

I never said I wanted Harris there, I said *if* he were to play he has to come in earlier in the order. With Vettori looking like he is going to play, I'm not sure if Harris will.

My point with the all rounders is that none have batted *quite*well enough recently to cover batting at number 6. Cairns hasn't quite been there, Oram hasn't really shown his talent with the bat yet in ODI matches, and McCullum has played well later in the innings. I just feel if our top order were stronger it gives the likes of Cairns/Oram/McCullum more of a chance to do well.

Sinclair. He doesn't deserve it yet. If McMillan fails this series, then fine. And he can't bat anywhere in the order. Bat him at 5, and he will crumble. He either needs to open or 3.

MacMillan is another he needs pressure placed on him. Sinclair bats at 4 for Central Districts, why exactly can't he bat at 5? He works the ball well, hits the ball cleanly, and can clear the boundary when needed. I think MacMillan has had enough chances.

Butler would be great if he doesn't drop short.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is a real need for quality top order players. Astle is great when he gets going, but he gets out a lot early playing around his pad. Fleming has been great recently. Marshall looks promising, and Styris is doing well considering he's only been concentrating on his batting the last few years. Its nice we can bat down to 9 or 10 in the order at times, but I don't think that is any replacement for top order batsman.

 

[Mingster]

Look at Sinclair's career so far. His career has many similarities to McMillan.

 

[blackcapsrule]

True, but Sinclair has more big scores in Tests. 214 and 204, he doesn't play silly shots like Macca.

 

[Kent]

Although it's nice to have Astle back and all, if I was trying to give NZ the best chance to get to 80/0, I'd probably open with Fleming and Papps.

The thing I like about Papps is that he lets Fleming take centre stage. There was a powerful message created last summer by having of our captain in form, playing shots, and leading from the first ball. Around him we had 'juniors' like Cumming, Papps and Marshall who were happy to let their skipper hog as much of the strike as he wanted.

I think most international teams now have a bit more respect for Fleming's capabilities than Astle's. As far as they're concerned the more balls Fleming faces, the less chance they have of winning the game.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Who needs penetration. We just need to contain. And with Trescothick and Flintoff out, we should win it. If we don't, we are really ****.

That's IMO underestimating the rest of the team. We've still got Harmo, Vaughan, etc...

 

[blackcapsrule]

Although it's nice to have Astle back and all, if I was trying to give NZ the best chance to get to 80/0, I'd probably open with Fleming and Papps.

The thing I like about Papps is that he lets Fleming take centre stage. There was a powerful message created last summer by having of our captain in form, playing shots, and leading from the first ball. Around him we had 'juniors' like Cumming, Papps and Marshall who were happy to let their skipper hog as much of the strike as he wanted.

I think most international teams now have a bit more respect for Fleming's capabilities than Astle's. As far as they're concerned the more balls Fleming faces, the less chance they have of winning the game.

Yes, Flem is our trump card to winning matches. If he scores big we win. It's as simple as that.