*Official* 1st Test - England v India - Keep all Discussion Here Please!

[bigvince]

Ganguly is certainly not the person to captain India. His own form since taking over the leadership role has plummeted and in any other side he would have been given the boot. He has one ton and 5 halves, compared to his seven tons and 12 halves he made prior to becoming captain.
The other batmen must cover for him.. thats utter rubbish

The influence and inspiration he has over the bowlers is nought. He rather they hang their heads when being knocked around He perfers to scold and punish, than encourage.
Exactly the same with the fielders. Again his own fielding is a bloodly joke.. even the supporters laugh at him chasing a ball.

This guy must get out of the test arena...refresh himself and then come back but not as captain... he sucks ..big time.

As for comparing him to Steve Waugh... what a joke. Steve has the support of the team. He leads, encourages and fights from the front. As for Ganguly.. read above.

Scorpio.. the Aussies have at least three class bowlers at all times to restrict the other side, therefore the toss is not vital.. India has two greenhorns in Harbie and Khan and Kumble as key bowlers.. Kumble struggles outside of the sub continent.

 

[luckyeddie]

Enough first test, I reckon. Time for a 'second test' thread?

 

[bigvince]

Same result Eddie...u know that

 

[scorpio]

Bigvince:
Ganguly is not as good as Waugh. I certainly agree. But the rest of your post is totally wrong.

Let me refute it..

Batting : yeah he certainly sucked. But in the westindies he was the second best batsman after laxman. He showed a lot of grit and made some consistent good scores. He has alwys done well in onedays. So he failed one test. is that enough to drop him already ?

So nasser hussain with a avg of 36 deserves a place for his captaincy.

Steve waugh despite failing and getting old deserves a place for his captaincy.

Fleming with a avg of 37 and a constant failure to convert 50's to 100's deserves a place.

Jayasuriya with his hit or miss methods and being a flat track bully deserves a place

hmm..good argument there buddy..Justdont beleive the media all the time.

Captaincy:
Harb,yuvraj,kaif,mongia,zaheer,nehra -> all these players have their place thanks to ganguly.
yeah he screwed murali karthik,ramesh and joshi still it is a good strike rate.

For yrs india had spineless Nice guys as captain. For the first time since gavaskar we have a captain who is fearless and can walk the talk. At this stage it is avery big plus. Soon we will need a captain with nasser's or flemings mental acumen. But for the moment ganguly fits the bill perfectly.

Regarding respect..due u have any inside sources that tell that the team hates ganguly while all the aussie players love steve waugh ? :rolleyes:

Show me one interview where a current indian player did not praise ganguly ?

How abt this? Nasser publicly slagged off Tudor's and Hoggards mental strength instead of supporting them. So shall we drop him ?

When slater was dropped warne didnt agree and publicly stated that personal life should not interfere with cricket performance.So has waugh lost the respect?

 

[Top_Cat]

Steve waugh despite failing and getting old deserves a place for his captaincy.

Whoa. I take issue with this. Steve Waugh's failings as a player only happened in one season (if you count the SA and NZ series' as two series'). He's not had a really bad run for a prolonged period of time. So believe me, Steve Waugh still commands his Test place purely as a batsman.

 

[bigvince]

Some good points to discuss there Scorpio.

Even though Ganguly won't take crap from others about his team ( your walk the talk, I take is in direct reference to his confrontation with Steve Waugh) he is still not the inspired leader fro the Indian cricket team.

As a one day player he is an excellent batsmen and does help out in the bowling to get the odd break through and tap the run rate. My post was on his test career.
As captain he has not failed in one test, as you say nor has he had consistent good scores..
his ave, excluding Zim and Bangla is Windies 53 ( as you pointed out excellent), England in India 22, India in SA 30, in Lanka 33, Aus in India 17 . Certainly not decent for a full time batsman at three, four and five.

As for the team hating him.. the point I make is he does not lift the team when the going is tough, like a leader is meant to do. Steve, Flemming, Hussain and Jayasuriya can be seen motivating and encouraging when the chips are down or when going in for the kill. That is the difference I see between them and Ganguly.

India never has had success in breeding cricketing leaders, save the odd one and I certainly don't see anyone capable of stepping in and doing a better job.

Lara and Sachin have been through that phase and we all know the outcome. Polly was also close to being ruined as a cricket captain.
Now its Ganguly turn burn under that pressure that the Indian supporters and country puts on the team and captain in particular.

 

[aussie_beater]

See, as far as India's captaincy is concerned I think there is no need for any panic.Ganguly is good enough and all this reasoning about he not being able to inspire or motivate the team, doesn't hold any water.There is no one better in the Indian team who can become the captain and so this whole argument is moot.The problem with the team is its lack of application in its overall game for test matches and that includes the captain as a batsman.That's what needs to be fixed.

Enough of tihs first test.Bring on the second...yeah !
8D

 

[royGilchrist]

Some Indian team fans are so deluded...

Ganguly was one of the best Indian batsmen before he became the cap'n, and since he became cap, he is not the same batsman anymore, Vince gave statistics in this regard.

He is not a good captain by any means. You guys praise him as a captain, even have the daring to point the similarities with Steve Waugh! Are you insane, SW is one of the best captains in the last few decades, and Ganguly...well Ganguly has probably been one of the worst Indian cap'ns in recent Indian history (and thats tough to accomplish), Azhar, Sunny, Kapil etc were all better. And after the praises you go on to complain about how bowlers are not concentrating on line and length, batsmen are not focussed etc. Well Ganguly is responsible for a lot of this, as he is the captain.

In cricket, being Captain is not only about setting the filed, choosing the bowlers, the batting order, toss etc, but its more about getting the maximum out of the players, choosing the best team etc, and I think Ganguly has failed in this miserably. I am sure a guy like Kapil could induce Tendulkar to play better bigger innings. He himself has became a lot worse, hence effectively losing another good batsman, Imran another awesome captain, played considerably better as a captain. Wasim Akram was double as effective when playing with Imran, which shows what a good captan Imran was.

A lot of the people think that Ganguly showing attitude towards press, other teams, showing up late for the toss, etc shows how good a captain he is. And people think that finally India has got a captain who can stand up to others. Well, this is all bullsh!t, infact this is making an awful impression on the other team members especially young ones, and its definetely hurting.

 

[scorpio]

Some good points to discuss there Scorpio.

Even though Ganguly won't take crap from others about his team ( your walk the talk, I take is in direct reference to his confrontation with Steve Waugh) he is still not the inspired leader fro the Indian cricket team.

As a one day player he is an excellent batsmen and does help out in the bowling to get the odd break through and tap the run rate. My post was on his test career.
As captain he has not failed in one test, as you say nor has he had consistent good scores..
his ave, excluding Zim and Bangla is Windies 53 ( as you pointed out excellent), England in India 22, India in SA 30, in Lanka 33, Aus in India 17 . Certainly not decent for a full time batsman at three, four and five.

As for the team hating him.. the point I make is he does not lift the team when the going is tough, like a leader is meant to do. Steve, Flemming, Hussain and Jayasuriya can be seen motivating and encouraging when the chips are down or when going in for the kill. That is the difference I see between them and Ganguly.

India never has had success in breeding cricketing leaders, save the odd one and I certainly don't see anyone capable of stepping in and doing a better job.

Lara and Sachin have been through that phase and we all know the outcome. Polly was also close to being ruined as a cricket captain.
Now its Ganguly turn burn under that pressure that the Indian supporters and country puts on the team and captain in particular.

Bigvince: I certainly agree with you tht on performance he should have been dropped from our team a long time ago. No arguments there buddy. But he performed really well against windies..so there is every reason to believe that he is coming to terms with his limitations and turning the corner.

We have to consider one thing when we discuss SG's captaincy. He took a tattered team to glory. Under sachin we lost our 15 yr old unbeaten record. And also we were marred by match fixing. For the first time since i have been watching cricket india has a team where most of the members actually give back as good as we get.
For the first time there is a captain who can fight with the selector over a player and win AND NOT GET NOT PUNISHED for that.

Kapil never got away with that. Srikkanth got dropped coz he supported a pay rise.
Azhar never asked a question.
Sachin got really played with when he had to resort to dubious means along with Kapil to keep out azhar in OZ.

So when you consider all these factors and the fact tht there is other player who could actually lead india now...ganguly makes a lot sense.

THough i agree with your view that india never had many good cricketing leaders. I can remember only 4 and ganguly is one of them.

cheers

 

[scorpio]

ROy: It would help if u would reply without talking abt urself all the time (like when u say deluded or idiot..we know u are buddy..heh)

Let me put things in perspective for you. And i would be very interested in your reply.

First off Ganguly was and is a very good batsmen...in onedays
If you care to look at the stats you will see that even before he took over the captaincy he was no great shakes as a test batsman. He performed only against weak bowling and the subcontinent.
When he become the captain and began giving it back he was put under the microscope and his weaknesses were found out. Do u disagree with that ?


You seem to have big complex regarding ganguly's captaincy. lol..

Kapil won two tests when he had a tailor made attack in england.
Azhar won a single test in SL and nothing anywhere else in over6 yrs.
SAchin won nothing.

Ganguly has won 3 in just two yrs. Apart from givin this indian team some spine. So in wht way is he the worst indian captain ? coz he wont kiss steve waugh's ass?

For the record ( for deluded ppl like u) steve waugh recently praised ganguly. WHich says a lot abt the way he handled things at home.

You are praising kapil..lol..nothing can be more stupid.
Kapil is a grt cricketer and a real jerk as a person. His runins with gavaskar, the way he prolonged his career for the record and denying srinath two yrs at his prime. He was coach of india for a while and wht happened. Well he sucked so badly. Not a single fast bowler gained anything. Match fixing allegations became louder and politics and infighting were encouraged.
Oh and SACHIN WAS THE CAPTAIN.Did kapil get the best out of him? hahah sadly no..

One more argument you had:
Steve waugh and Imran were great captains. BUt ganguly is crap..lets see

When it comes to captaincy i belive there are two approaches.
1. cerebral - tactics and strategy. Like nasser,fleming,mike brearley,pataudi, ranatunga
2. Man management and inspirational - Giving ur teammates stability, support and bring the best out of them.
like- imran,kapil, waugh,ganguly,richards.

Waugh is no great shakes when it comes to captaincy. His main strenght was making a player feel comfartable and inspirational. Same with imran. In india waugh didnt realise that ponting just lost the mental battle and didnt drop him. WHY COZ HE HAD BLIND FAITH. It had helped so many times but not in tht case some thing which the thinking captains wouldnt hae missed.
Ganguly though not yet in waughs league...nevertheless is effective in his own way.

Cheers...didnt mean to come out so harsh though..

 

[scorpio]

Steve waugh despite failing and getting old deserves a place for his captaincy.

Whoa. I take issue with this. Steve Waugh's failings as a player only happened in one season (if you count the SA and NZ series' as two series'). He's not had a really bad run for a prolonged period of time. So believe me, Steve Waugh still commands his Test place purely as a batsman.

T_C: I think i didnt explain the context enough. I meant compared the batsmen waiting and the fact that waugh is old and his reflexes seem to have slowed down. Ithink droppiing him now really wont affect OZ.
though knowing waugh one may never be sure..

 

[Top_Cat]

T_C: I think i didnt explain the context enough. I meant compared the batsmen waiting and the fact that waugh is old and his reflexes seem to have slowed down. Ithink droppiing him now really wont affect OZ.
though knowing waugh one may never be sure..

Oh yeah of course but you don't drop your best player of the last 10 years because he's had one bad season. I'd be asking questions if he has a bad one THIS season but not after the last one. Sure he had a horror tour of South Africa but it was to be expected. So we'll see hw he goes this season against the Old Enemy.

 

[aussie_beater]

Some Indian team fans are so deluded...

deluded....eh ? and what about your condition...shall we call it ignorance ? 'coz that's dripping, pal ..giving Azhar more marks then anybody sure proves your credentials.All he did was win matches in India which every Indian captain(except Sachin) did anyway.He never toured West Indies and got away with one tour to Aus and SA....lost both of them miserably.And he achieved to divide the team in a way that no other captain did...had a rift with Sachin and Prabhakar and with Kapil earlier.And these were not made up reports by Aussies like Ian Chappel who it seems got more news from the Indian dressing room then even Ganguly's team members did.So save your hysteria...lest we come to know more about your delusions, alright.

 

[scorpio]

lol..aussie_beater..i totally forgot abt that crap abt azhar of all people being better than ganguly as a captain. The team just ran under autopilot when azhar was the captain.

Roy: One more thing. As far as i remember indian bowlers are notorious for being indisciplined. Ganguly and wright can influence it only to a certain extend. But if zaheer , nehra and agarkar bowl like brain dead zombies there is not much one can do.

For example after the recent SA tour the entire pace attack was dumped. Never before have the selectors acted so bravely. And the pace attack included a veteran names srinath.

So they are recalled to the windies tour. But have the bowlers learned a lesson ? No out of 8 innings they bowl like international bowlers in 2 innings. In the others they suck so badly that you could have put gavin larsen,chris harris and ian austin and called them tearaways...

 

[royGilchrist]

And i would be very interested in your reply.

Enjoy...

If you care to look at the stats you will see that even before he took over the captaincy he was no great shakes as a test batsman

Statistics;
before captaincy: 35 matches 46 average
after captaincy: 24 matches 34 average

Need I say more. If you think 46 is a bad average, and/or if you think that 46->34 has not been a downgrade, then I think we can end the debate, I dont have more to say.

Kapil was better, because winning the WC by defeating the mighty WI twice with a bowling attack of Kapil, Binny, Madan Lal (have seen him bowl six half-volleys in an over!!), Mohinder Amarnath, is an achievement of epic proportions. If that bowling attack did not overahcieve then I dont know what is over achieveing. The bowling attackas you and some other Indian fans had pointed out, is quite good now. I am not sure about that but in any case, as you had complained about their poor performance, that is definetely underachieving. Kapil literally willed the team to victory as the captain.

All the former cpatians I mentioned, did not become worse when made captain and that alone makes them better than Ganguly, Kapil bowling average improved by 3 runs (29 to 26 I think), some of his best batting innings were also as a captian, Azhar's batting average stayed roughly the same 45 (not captain), 44 (captain).

You seem to have big complex regarding ganguly's captaincy

No idea what this means.

I never said Ganguly is the worst Indian captain, but instead 'one of the worst in recent times' (or something to that effect anyways). BTW, India hasnt had any great captains in recent times like Imran, Lloyd, I chappell or Waugh. sunny was decent, and I didnt watch much cricket when Bedi was captain but he might have been good.

For the record (for deluded ppl like u) steve waugh recently praised ganguly

A lot of people say a lot of things, but i get the feeling that you would select the only quotes which suit your ideas. Ian chappell, has criticized Ganguly, I dont remember the exact words. And Chappell is certainly a more respected cricket expert than S Waugh. But I would not take the words of an expert as gospel, there is a lot of politically motivated, and in S Waugh's case psychologically motivated comments, which at best should be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

I agree about Kapil sucking as coach. But its a difficult situation to be the coach in cricket. To impact a team as a coach, as much as a captain can do, can be done, but its tough, and needs a special personality, ala Woolmer or Whatmore, Kapil, Miandad or wright just dont cut it.

1. cerebral - tactics and strategy. Like nasser,fleming,mike brearley,pataudi, ranatunga
2. Man management and inspirational - Giving ur teammates stability, support and bring the best out of them.
like- imran,kapil, waugh,ganguly,richards.

These few sentences are quite mind boggling. Are you trying to say that Imran, Waugh didnt have good tactics and strategy, and Ranatunga, Nasser or Fleming dont inspire their teamates to do better? If this is correct then I could give you sepcific instances to prove otherwise.

One final note. The next few matches coming up are a test of Ganguly as a person. Its a tough ask but its not a foregone conclusion by any means that he would fail. And I would be giving a lot more importance to how he bats then how he captains. The key to good captaincy lies in performing well (Brearly was an exception I guess ). If Ganguly can play a brave innings or two, it would work a heck of a lot more than any motivational/inspirational speech he can give his team. India's hopes lie more in Ganguly as a batsman then Ganguly as a captain, good batting would automatically translate into good captaincy. I hope he does well and we have a more competitive series.

team selection: They must play Kaif, and Laxman should definetely come in higher. And persoanlly I would love to see Sachin open the innings. Prasad would have been a good player to select, maybe they should try and fly him in now.

 

[royGilchrist]

For captaincy candidates, dravid is an obvious choice, and it would be stupid to declare him a failure without giving him a decent run at it.

 

[scorpio]

Here we go buddy.

Statistics;
before captaincy: 35 matches 46 average
after captaincy: 24 matches 34 average

Need I say more. If you think 46 is a bad average, and/or if you think that 46->34 has not been a downgrade, then I think we can end the debate, I dont have more to say.

I thought you would be lot more sensible than that. I coulnt find a website which breaks up his avg before captaincy and puts it in a readable format. .here is a link
EDIT: Sorry. It screws up the display. Check statsguru in cric info.com

Jeez thts big.
In short against wI,AUS,SA,PAk his avg was 33 and lower. He has alwys struggled against genuine pace and away matches. Just tht his weakness was exploited more as he became captain.

Kapil was better, because winning the WC by defeating the mighty WI twice with a bowling attack of Kapil, Binny, Madan Lal (have seen him bowl six half-volleys in an over!!), Mohinder Amarnath, is an achievement of epic proportions. If that bowling attack did not overahcieve then I dont know what is over achieveing. The bowling attackas you and some other Indian fans had pointed out, is quite good now. I am not sure about that but in any case, as you had complained about their poor performance, that is definetely underachieving. Kapil literally willed the team to victory as the captain.

God knows whats gives you guys the notion tht kapil was a grt captain. First record.
Kapil - Matches/Won/Lost: 34/4/7
SG - Matches/Won/Lost: 24/10/8

Kapil won a world cup as underdog. Yep he inspired the team. But despite all the hype it was just a lucky occrence as the windies came in 84 and walked all over india. The victory in 85 World series cup was acheived under Gavaskar.

The attack which won the 83 cup was full of allrounders,bits and pieces cricketters and seamers. Tailor made for england and they perform to their potential. Though helped by a arrogant and complacent windies.

Kapil was agrt player...and atrully despicable person. His inter team rivalry, state bias, hanging on to his place on his reputation, politics to keep out azhar, politics and screwing sachin, total brain dead performance as coach, cryin on media, dishing out lines straight from a C grade flop movie..then statements like he would come with a scoop in two days and then total silence for the next 3 months ...have made it clear to the indian public what sort of person he is. Infact he and imran are the worst hypocrites in the world.

Apart from winning in england twice kapil has no other achievement to talk as a captain.
Next argument plz...Part 2 coming.

[Edited on 8/3/02 by scorpio]

 

[scorpio]

why does this thread not wrap around and keeps going for 4 screen ? :I

 

[scorpio]

I never said Ganguly is the worst Indian captain, but instead 'one of the worst in recent times' (or something to that effect anyways). BTW, India hasnt had any great captains in recent times like Imran, Lloyd, I chappell or Waugh. sunny was decent, and I didnt watch much cricket when Bedi was captain but he might have been good.

Sunny was too defensive and had no ammo. Bedi sucked.Period.

Ganguly has been the first captain after Pataudi in the 60's to have aggression, not play inter team politics, have a positive effect on his teammates. In short if he is sacked as captain he will go down still as one of india's best captains. Not necessarily coz of his tactical brilliance, but because of the overall effect he has had on the team and its outlook.

Ian chappell and steve waugh.

Steve waugh started his customary disintegration bullshit. But he found tht ganguly was willing to go as low as he did. I still cant forget the way the entire aussie media,explayers and indian media going after savrav.
Bottomline: Aussies tried to put pressure on him and ended up getting caught in their own net. (hint: they folded under pressure)

When Ian chappell can say some thing unbiased i will accept it. But until now he has been talking out of his ass when ganguly is concerned.

As i have wrote earlier every indian player and coach have praised ganguly. not a single criticism. It his ganguly's problem abt how he handles a player. Ian chappell is not privy to what happens in the dressing room is he ? Like he was a gentle man he preaches ethics to SG.

Captaincy and waugh,imran ...

I meant just as a general classification.Just a opinion there dude.
I saw waugh closely in the indian tour. And i have watched nasser and others too. It is my opinion that waugh has more ammo..and is very conservative.
His biggest asset is his guts,the fact tht he supports his teamates to the hilt and helps them on to their comfort zone. I havent seen many brilliant tactical moves from waugh a la hussain or Fleming or even cronje.

He is good but not a grt. The 16 victories and media hype building him in to a statesman (when he is just another low life character masquerading as a stateman) have made him a larger than life figure. Waugh is definetly a grt player,quality captain...but not all that the media hypes him to be.

Javed miandad had better figures than imran as a captain. Javed is the one who discovred wasim and waqar ( yea i am right buddy). Both deserve equal praise..but imran alwys walksaway with the lions share. CHARISMA ?


Dravid is good ...but i am not sure if he will handle the pressure. May be he will come good.
Ganguly is not the brightest diode in the circuit...but for now he is the best india has...his guts has really made a diff to our team.

 

[royGilchrist]

I coulnt find a website which breaks up his avg before captaincy and puts it in a readable format.

I think its about time you learn how to use statsguru. It would greatly help. I am not sure, but I think you are saying that its not possible to get the stats I quoted. So does that mean I am making it up? Also, if I can prove they are correct would you be convinced, or they dont mean a thing even if they are accurate?

In any case, it pretty simple with statsguru, use the filter for captaincy, and then use the filter without captaincy and both times it would give you filtered data. Thats how I got my stats.

He has alwys struggled against genuine pace and away matches. Just tht his weakness was exploited more as he became captain

Buddy, you just dont want to acknowledge the fact that his performance became much worse as captain. Before becoming the cap'n, bad technique or not, he was averaging 46, and that in no way is bad. So you saying that all of a sudden wen he became captain everyone figured out his weakness!! That is absolutely hilarious.

Kapil - Matches/Won/Lost: 34/4/7
SG - Matches/Won/Lost: 24/10/8

Fair enough, good point. But I have never said Kapil was a stellar captain. I think I wnet a little too far saying Ganguly was worse then the rest of the Indian captains. I guess he is similar.

The attack which won the 83 cup was full of allrounders,bits and pieces cricketters and seamers. Tailor made for england and they perform to their potential.

Wow, its that simple isnt it. So I guess at that time you must have predicted that India were the pre-turnament odds on favorites, as they were 'tailor made' for England.... Havent heard anything more ridiculous than that. That victory by India has got to be one of the most shocking victories in cricket ever. Its should be an inspiration for underdogs everywhere.

His inter team rivalry, state bias, hanging on to his place on his reputation, politics to keep out azhar, politics and screwing sachin, total brain dead performance as coach, cryin on media, dishing out lines straight from a C grade flop movie

Its difficult for me to commnet on all the stuff you have said, its probably all true, but I definetely take exception to the comment about Kapil hanging on to his place. Thats wrong. When he left he was India's best pacer along with Srinath. And the type of pacers India produces, selectors would have been more than happy to have Kapil play a few more matches. His last few series:

3 matches 7 wkts at 19 runs in India vs Eng
3 matches 7 wkts at 25 runs in India vs SL

Not bad for an Indian fast bowler anytime.

Sunny was too defensive and had no ammo

what the **** is ammo?

In short if he is sacked as captain he will go down still as one of india's best captains. Not necessarily coz of his tactical brilliance, but because of the overall effect he has had on the team and its outlook.

Hehe! God forbid, if India did not have Ganguly at the helm how badly the Indian team would have performed.

Steve waugh started his customary disintegration bullshit. But he found tht ganguly was willing to go as low as he did. I still cant forget the way the entire aussie media,explayers and indian media going after savrav.
Bottomline: Aussies tried to put pressure on him and ended up getting caught in their own net. (hint: they folded under pressure)

And then you guys call me deluded

Ian chappell is not privy to what happens in the dressing room is he ?

So did S Waugh had info about the going ons in the dressing room. As you gave S Waugh's favorable commments as points to back your argument.

As i have wrote earlier every indian player and coach have praised ganguly. not a single criticism

Are you from sports.com and have we had arguments before? Are you sensibleGuy by any chance? How often does that happen that the active team-members or coach criticize the active captain. So this is the best argument you can come up with to support Ganguly as captain?

I saw waugh closely in the indian tour. And i have watched nasser and others too. It is my opinion that waugh has more ammo..and is very conservative.
His biggest asset is his guts,the fact tht he supports his teamates to the hilt and helps them on to their comfort zone. I havent seen many brilliant tactical moves from waugh a la hussain or Fleming or even cronje.

I am looking for a better word than deluded....oh I think I got it...fantasy. You are in a fantasy world, come out of it so we talk some sense.

The 16 victories and media hype building him in to a statesman (when he is just another low life character masquerading as a stateman)

Statesman???

Javed miandad had better figures than imran as a captain. Javed is the one who discovred wasim and waqar ( yea i am right buddy). Both deserve equal praise..but imran alwys walksaway with the lions share.

Miandad used to captain the Pakistan team when Imran did not play home series, against **** teams. They could have made Tahir Naqqash the captian for these series and the results would have been the same. When Javed did captain for long periods he was a failure, i.e. after the WC with easily the deepest Pakistan team in years with Wasim, Waqar, Inzi, Mushy, Javed himself, Aamir Sohail, Ramiz, Saeed etc he could not do anything significant and evetually the bickering led him out of captaincy. Imran transformed Pakistan in 1982 from a talented but underachieveing team to a force to reckon with. He ahieved memorable results everywhere. Winning a test in England in 1982 (man of the series), winning the first Pak series in England against a powerful England side. Beat India in India for the first time, tied series with the mighty WI in Wi and Pak, that has never been done before either. Won innumerable ODi tournaments, which had also not been done before Imran, won a little thing known as the World Cup in Aus.

As for discovering Wasim and Waqar, this is a very naive thing to say. About a dozen different people claim to have discovered these guys. The thing is what would you call discovering them. Players and others associated with the team continually come up with new players they tell the selectors and captain to try out. Havent you heard the legend that Imran was not well and wathcing TV where he saw the Willis Cup trophy final, and saw Waqar bowling and instantly got in touch with him

Im not the one to make stupid predictions, if I were to make one I'd say if Dravid was made the Indian Captain, he would prove to be surprisingly successful.

[Edited on 8/3/02 by royGilchrist]