*Official* 1st Test - England v India - Keep all Discussion Here Please!

[royGilchrist]

I think its no point continuing this discussion further, both of us say the same stuff every post, and then complain that the other doesnt read the posts carefully.

So there you go, read my previous post carefully

The discussion was about the degradation in Ganguly's performance as a batsman since becoming captain. I hope he can turn things around after this historic victory and his gutsy performance.

It was never about him being bad against genuine ace, or his status in history as an Indian captain (I do realize I was a bit harsh on Ganguly in this respect).

BTW, ur previous had 'args', which I'm not sure what u meant by. They definetely were not arguments, perhaps name calling is more like it.

Buddy, you are too full of urself, a bit of humility and modesty also helps sometimes.

I'm thinking of ripping Top Cats avatar

[Edited on 8/26/02 by royGilchrist]

 

[scorpio]

Originally posted by Roygilchrist

I think its no point continuing this discussion further, both of us say the same stuff every post, and then complain that the other doesnt read the posts carefully.

First off only you havent read other posts. I have been refuting your arguments, as have been Aussie_Beater and Full_Length. Only you dont read and keep parroting some stupid statistics..long after i shot tht argument to pieces.

BigVince came up with an argument and i answered it. He saw the logic and corrected himself.But buddy you seem so sure of yourself tht even after being proven wrong you keep ignoring the arguments and come up with the same stats again and again.

In case you are wondering wht i am talkin abt...read below


Originally posted by Roygilchrist

1. The real fact is simple: He was overall a very good batsman but could not handle the pressures of captaincy and his batting suffered i.e. 46 to 34. tweleve runs swing is very significant.

2. If a batsman scores in favorable conditions, but scores at 46, he still cannot be called bad

3. Before becoming the cap'n, bad technique or not, he was averaging 46, and that in no way is bad.

4. Statistics;
before captaincy: 35 matches 46 average
after captaincy: 24 matches 34 average

Need I say more. If you think 46 is a bad average, and/or if you think that 46->34 has not been a downgrade, then I think we can end the debate, I dont have more to say.



Each time you posted that i wrote why his avg was like that and how skewed it was. By your logic Vinod kambli averages 54 even now...shall we call him better than Dravid?

Read again abt the break up of ganguly's stats and tell me what u make of it. Infact ganguly is a better batsman now that he can play and make runs against tougher opposition and conditions.

Originally posted by Roygilchrist

It was never about him being bad against genuine ace, or his status in history as an Indian captain (I do realize I was a bit harsh on Ganguly in this respect).



So it was never abt his status as captain or your esteemed opinion abt him ?
read below mate..

Originally posted by Roygilchrist

1. SG is an idiot

2. Some Indian team fans are so deluded...

Ganguly was one of the best Indian batsmen before he became the cap'n, and since he became cap, he is not the same batsman anymore, Vince gave statistics in this regard.

3. He is not a good captain by any means. You guys praise him as a captain, even have the daring to point the similarities with Steve Waugh! Are you insane, SW is one of the best captains in the last few decades, and Ganguly...well Ganguly has probably been one of the worst Indian cap'ns in recent Indian history (and thats tough to accomplish), Azhar, Sunny, Kapil etc were all better.



SO tht was not being hard on ganguly's captaincy ?
Infact you formed ur stupid opinion without even reading or checkin what kapil, sunny and azhar had done as a captain.

When i pointed tht to u...u agreed may be he is not the worst. Get this Ganguly has 5 overseas victory..no kapil,sunny and Azhar put togother dont have tht many.

As usuall u understood ur folly but choose the gloat over it..nice


Originally posted by Roygilchrist

Buddy, you are too full of urself, a bit of humility and modesty also helps sometimes.



I am not too full of myself.It is just that you made a few dumb arguments based on ur perceptions, likes and dislikes. But whenever i or Aussie_Beater or Top_Cat came up with some good arguments you choose to ignore them. Have you even refuted one of my arguments ?
Regarding Ganguly's captaincy, Other indian captain's stats, steve waugh's greatness , miandads stats...i can go on.

Instead you have been parroting the same story abt how ganguly averaged 46 and how he lost it as a captain. Well i hope u dont have such a simplistic view of cricket. (Kambli must be the worlds second best batsmen..going by ur arguments)

Now instead of coming up with standard statements like "our arguments are going no where" try to come up with some thing sensible.

Oh and dont start cryin out for support like u did earlier....you made your bed...you sleep in it so to speak.

I am not getting personal buddy..just stating the facts.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Could you continue this one by e-mail lads?

 

[scorpio]

Could you continue this one by e-mail lads?

Why whats the problem ?

 

[Anil]

....plus guys, you are still in the 1st test thread, and we have almost reached the fourth test.

 

[scorpio]

anil...it is a argument..we both are not spouting crap like some others..

plus it is civil (well we both got carried away at places) and well supported by facts...(it might be little stretch to talk bat Roy's posts.. )

so why not discuss it still ?

 

[Neil Pickup]

The issue here is that it's more of a one-on-one argument/discussion, which isn't what a message board's for. There are no problems with the content but 1-on-1s are for emails.

 

[Anil]

Hey man, wasn't commenting on the quality of your posts or the heat generated by it. just pointed out the fact that this is a really old thread. Since your arguments doesn't really have anything to do with the 1st test as such, why shouldn't we continue it in a new thread especially in light of the latest developments(3rd test results)?

 

[scorpio]

The issue here is that it's more of a one-on-one argument/discussion, which isn't what a message board's for. There are no problems with the content but 1-on-1s are for emails.

Listen buddy just dont start a arugment for the sake of having one..

how long have u had internet ? since when did u start contributing in message boards?

So should i then write a general reply each time ? :rolleyes:

Incase you dont know...message boards are for ppl to exchange views be it one on one or one with many..

Oh how abt this...shall i just stop posting..get the email addresses of each person and then ask them if they want to discuss with me ?

You need much more experience in moderating forums..

 

[marc71178]

The issue here is that it's more of a one-on-one argument/discussion, which isn't what a message board's for. There are no problems with the content but 1-on-1s are for emails.

Oh, how you've changed your tune now you've got a bit of power!

8D

 

[luckyeddie]

Marc 2 Neil 1 (Subject to finding an independent adjudicator, but since everyone likes me more than him, that'll be impossible!)

I can be really independent. I am a democrat, so let me meet you both and I will back the one who buys me the most beer.

 

[royGilchrist]

Although I'm said what I had to say here with scorpio, nothing new to add, I do agree with Scorpio and disagree with Neil. Whether the discussion is between two people or multiple people, or if its about the first test or the fourth test, I dont see why its inappropriate.

Its fun here with lots of interesting people, and nice interface, but the rules are unnecessarily very strict, and especially when guys in a position of some authority start making their own rules. Capital letters not allowed, one on one discussions not allowed, what next? Its almost becoming like ICC, above shoulder height not allowed, more than one bouncer per over not allowed...

The rules should be minimalist, and just to make sure that things dont go out of hand.

 

[Anil]

Yeah, you are right. Others are not exactly banned from joining in, are they? Anyone can jump in at any point with their comments.

 

[scorpio]

Welll..guess Neil made a mistake..

Anyway...this has helped roy take the moral high ground and helped him escape answering my questions.. .

 

[Neil Pickup]

how long have u had internet?

4 years

since when did u start contributing in message boards?

2 years

So should i then write a general reply each time ? :rolleyes:

No.. this thread had become a 1-on-1

Incase you dont know...message boards are for ppl to exchange views be it one on one or one with many..

Yes...

Oh how abt this...shall i just stop posting..get the email addresses of each person and then ask them if they want to discuss with me ?

That's your choice

You need much more experience in moderating forums..

Yes.

Marc - The Fulton thread was 2-on-1 and there were few other members!

Fair enough.. I thought the thread was starting to boil over. Obviously not...

 

[royGilchrist]

Scorpio,

If you insist I would post a reply soon, its really mind boggling how diffcult it is to make you understand something so simple. But I guess its worth another shot.

 

[scorpio]

lol...coming from you..it is a bit rich buddy..anyone who can understand english willknow tht the main focus of your argument was...his avg dipped from 46 to 34...(repeat it 4 times)...

Well come up wtih some thing new and TRY TO ANSWER MY ARGUMENTs..

the ball is in ur court..

 

[royGilchrist]

Ok, I would try to put this argument together piece by piece...

So Scorpio, I would like you to answer me in simple 'yes' or 'no'.


-Was'nt my initial argument: "Ganguly's batting performance has degraded since becoming captain"?

-Do you agree that I also added that he was one of the best Indian players before he became captain, so can we call this the second(ary) argument?

In your reply please try to answer only these questions as simply (if possible yes/no) as possible. And do not try to drown these in all the rhetoric, which you seem to be so fond of.

Just one smartass comment (guys from sports.com would know what I am talking about): you are like an Indian version of Perfect_Mo

 

[scorpio]

Obviously you are unable to read long sentences. Anyway..i will have to speak ur language now...hope u dont get confused by yes' and no's.

-Was'nt my initial argument: "Ganguly's batting performance has degraded since becoming captain"?

NO. Your initial argument was ganguly is a idiot.

A little chronology of the events since u are confused.

After you came up with tht gem...BigVince came up with a sane argument...i refuted it. Then you jumped on the bandwagon.

your second argument: Indian fans are deluded.

Now lets jump on to ur third argument which also happens to be ur second question (Secondary argument ) from the previous post..

Do you agree that I also added that he was one of the best Indian players before he became captain, so can we call this the second(ary) argument?

A RESOUNDING NO.

Certainly in Onedays. But not in tests.

I have posted statistics and explained abt them...may be reading match reports might help.

Ganguly Performed against ZIMB,SA,BANGLADESH,NZ at HOME.
His only good performance away till then was IN HISDEBUT SERIES AGAINST ENGLAND.

HE SUCKED at HOME AND AWAY against WI, AUS, SA and PAK.

Now dont tell me that his average was 46. It was 46 because he took heavy toll of mediocre bowling. Against quality opposition he failed. IT WAS NOT GIVEN MUCH MEDIA ATTENTION BECAUSE OF HIS ONE DAY FORM, HE WAS NOT IN THE SPOTLIGHT MUCH, INDIA HAD AZHAR,SIDDHU et al then.

Is it clear enough for u ? Buddy accepting a mistake is much better and braver than crying out for support like u did earlier.

As as appendage to your first argument:

Ganguly has actully improved since he became captain. His leg side display has improved like hell while he is rediscovering his off side play again.

He is now coming to terms with his limitations whihc is doin him a world of good.

HIS performances against windies and ENGLAND are a proof. Look up his avg and find out..

Dont live in the past abt sports.com. it sucked. I used to browse and never found any thing apart from racist crap. Disagree?


[Edited on 8/28/02 by scorpio]

 

[royGilchrist]

First of all 'SG is an idiot', is not an argument by any means. Its just a statement, in response to Indian fans thinking that all his on/off field antics, help him become a successful captain. Nope, he does it because he is an idiot.

I think ganguly is not the most sharpest captain in the world. But neither was steve waugh too. Guess the biggest strength of those two are that they motivate their team and make their teamates perform at thier best.

And for all those bashing SG...here is a thought...ever since we started playin we lack discipline...no matter what tactics you employ if the bowlers dont stick to a plan then you are gonna get thrashed.

If i remember correctly in the 5 tests in windies and 2 tests in SA...indian bowlers bowled with discipline in exactly 3 innings in 3 separate tests.
One resulted in a victory and 2 in hard fought defeats.

No matter what plans u have if a agarkar proceeds to bowl short at 130 mph..it defeats all purposes..right ?

The above is what you had written.

My reply to this was 'Indian fans are so deluded'.

If you read your post carefully, you would realize you are self-contradicting yourself in the same post. At one point you said that Ganguly like Steve Waugh is a good captain because he makes his teammates perform at their best. Then later on, you go on to say what can he do if his bowlers (Agrakar et al) do not bowl like they are supposed to. Isnt that self-contradictory????? If Ganguly cannot influence his bowlers to perform according to plan then how do you say he makes them perform better. Would S Waugh allow his bowlers to bowl the way they please, i.e. short and bad line. NOPE. Hence I called u deluded.

He was along with Dravid the second best Indian batsman at the time when he became the captain. When I say that I mean on all surfaces and in ODI and tests. FYI, when a batsman is judged overall he is judged against every opposition, on all kinds of pitches and in all forms of the game.