*Official* 1st Test - England v India - Keep all Discussion Here Please!

[royGilchrist]

I am not sure about Bichel, must have been bowling well but never looks threatning, although steady.

But I totally agree about Fleming, he is an awesome bowler, the guy swings the ball like a maniac, and I think the visitors were probably as worried about him as they were about McGrath.

Another one is Damien Martyn. The guy seems to have finally made a position for himself, but he was in and out of the national side despite playing very well, everytime he got the chance.

 

[scorpio]

Here we go..


Full length:

No matter what shots ganguly plays it was only a matter or time before his weaknesses were found. Your argument could go either ways. If he had played one more long tour he would have been throughly exposed much earlier. But i have to say his performance in windies was excellent. Seems he is coming to term with his limitations.

Reminds me of one of ganguly's quotes. During the initial part of his captaincy Kambli was selected for one days in sharjah. And he was hooking bouncers and getting out. Ganguly commented on it like...every one has there weaknesses and they should play to their strenghts (I am paraphrasing). Looks like it took him 2 yrs to listen to his own advice..hehe

Roy:

Stop hiding. Its ok you can come out..we wont hurt you..hehe
Ian chappell is an jackass.Period. He certainly is very articulate and intelligent. But he used up all his good will in the Aus tour of india by nit picking on ganguly on every frickin aspect. (saw austin powers recently..)
Aussie_beater put it excellently. There is only so much you can do to defend your team without losing your dignity. THis is one reason why i appreciate Harsha Bogle,Richie benaud , sunil gavaskar and Boycott. They are patriotic without crossing the limit.

 

[scorpio]

T_C :

you are so wrong there man.

Errrr, well I didn't hear about this. I remember Steve's comments about Ganguly's method of captaincy (and especially when he gave the Aussie section in the crowd in India the one-finger saulte - poor show for an international captain) but that was it. Everything else sort-of died after Australia lost that series in India. So I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of a 'witch-hunt'.

Yes that incident was in serious bad taste. Ganguly should have been fined or suspended for that. Reminds me of the incident where Inzi attacked a indian fan for callin him fat potato over the mic many times. But i actually support the players in one way.

Ganguly was under immense pressure coz,
1. he took the captaincy from sachin. You alway have the resident trolls like Raj singh dungarpur, Lele and BEdi crawling out of their caves and whining abt it and getting media attention.

2. The affair with an actress he had was blown out of proportion by the media which feared he was going the azhar way.

3. This was played upon by indian media, explayers , aussie media, aussie current and explayers and amazingly english media..lol.

4. And he just overreacted still a mistake i agree..

would say that the biggest witch-hunt victim throughout his whole career (not just a small part of it) has been Warnie. Warnie is an idiot in many ways but geez, why is the fact he smokes actually news? His phone-*** thing is totally his and his wife's business and him abusing that kid in NZ was blown right out of proportion (regardless of whether he did it or not). As I said, he's stupid for getting himself into these situations but geez, most of the stuff he's been busted for has been barely newsworthy yet it's been front-page news.

I'd say that Ganguly has had a relatively light introduction to media pressure.

Looks like u lead a bit of a sheltered life here..
Warne's smoking thing was blown out of proportion coz HE TOOK A SPONSOR SHIP DEAL NOT TO SMOKE AND MADE TONS OF MONEY..Selective quoting ?eh?
His Phone *** thing was stupid. Yeah but it got no more media attention than ganguly's affair.
Physical assault alwys gets attention you can never gripe abt it buddy. ( even if it is not true)

And how come he didnt suffer more for his "weather forecasting" while he being an upstanding gentleman calls Ranatunga a disgrace and Malik corrupt..lol

Ganguly has had more media scrutiny than any one else in recent times. Half the media doesnt know him properly.BUt he is labeled as a spoilt kid.Arrogant.Royal family..give it a break.

Every man and his dog sided with waugh and had a go at him when Oz toured india. AND THE MEDIA HYPE DIDNT GO AWAY AFTER THE TOUR. Gavaskar has written in his columns so many times why aussies are concerned with indian team selection and captaincy even a yr after they lost?

As for Steve Waugh's failings a captain

As i have wrote before...when ever waugh came up against a captain with decent firepower he has come out second best. He is not the greatest of tacticians. Part of it can be attributed to the fact that he is so street smart that he must find it hard when his teammates dont match him in that aspect.
But to his credit he is loyal, inspirational and builds team spirit. Grt qualities.

ANd you are spot on that he plays favorites. Blewett,slats,martyn,Fleming, bichel,macgill..all have been screwed at some time by waugh while mark continues to hang on.

And yeah warne would have made a grt captain. But like Ravi shastri we can only speculate abt how good they would have been.

[Edited on 8/6/02 by scorpio]

 

[Top_Cat]

Ganguly was under immense pressure coz,
1. he took the captaincy from sachin. You alway have the resident trolls like Raj singh dungarpur, Lele and BEdi crawling out of their caves and whining abt it and getting media attention.

2. The affair with an actress he had was blown out of proportion by the media which feared he was going the azhar way.

3. This was played upon by indian media, explayers , aussie media, aussie current and explayers and amazingly english media..lol.

4. And he just overreacted still a mistake i agree..

Okay well a lot of that stuff I didn't know about and I think that's indicative of that most media pressure against Ganguly was localised to India (one of the most populous countires in the world, given). I'm not saying that He's NEVER been under media pressure but it's been concentrated into a relatively short period of time. For his pre-captaincy days, all anyone talked about was his batting (rightly so). Since he's become captain, other issues have come to the fore. You expect more pressure as captain, though and he's not had to put up with stuff like that his entire career and Warnie hasn't even been captain yet! Imagine if he were!

The way I look at it is this; Warnie is a yobbo, macho moron who tends to attract negative publicity BUT it's my opinion that people follow him around just waiting for him to screw up. Most of the time, who cares?

Warne's smoking thing was blown out of proportion coz HE TOOK A SPONSOR SHIP DEAL NOT TO SMOKE AND MADE TONS OF MONEY..Selective quoting ?eh?

Nope because it's irrelevant. the fact he took a smoking deal (which was well known, I might add) is none of anyone's business other than his own and the company. As I said, people knew about the deal and it was only a matter of time before someone busted him having a ciggie because he gets hunted 24/7. And it's been this way his entire career in the world's media.

His Phone *** thing was stupid. Yeah but it got no more media attention than ganguly's affair.

Here it was like he'd murdered the Queen herself. Front-page news for ages. I always thought, "Who cares? If he cheats on his wife, he's a moron but that doesn't diminish the fact that it's HIS life, not ours."

Physical assault alwys gets attention you can never gripe abt it buddy. ( even if it is not true)

You want to talk about witch-hunts? There's your perfect example. When was Ganguly accused of something he didn't do or there's litte to no evidence he had done it?

And how come he didnt suffer more for his "weather forecasting" while he being an upstanding gentleman calls Ranatunga a disgrace and Malik corrupt..lol

Got me there. I mean it gets brought up all the time along with Mark Waugh's name but for sure, the Aussie public sure forgave them quickly.

Ganguly has had more media scrutiny than any one else in recent times

Notice the qualifier there; 'in recent times'. Warnie has had more media scrutiny than anyone else throughout his whole career.

Every man and his dog sided with waugh and had a go at him when Oz toured india. AND THE MEDIA HYPE DIDNT GO AWAY AFTER THE TOUR. Gavaskar has written in his columns so many times why aussies are concerned with indian team selection and captaincy even a yr after they lost?

Probably damaged pride, sour grapes etc. from losing the series. he Aussie team honestly thought they'd win easily and the loss was a VERY rude shock. I always thought the Aussie team took the Indians FAR too lightly to the extent where they seemed to think all they had to do was turn up and collect the Border-Gavaskar Trophy. I mean all the talk pre-series about how there wasn't a decent spin bowler in all of India was insane.

As i have wrote before...when ever waugh came up with a captain with decent firepower he has come out second best. He is not the greatest of tacticians. Part of it can be attributed to the fact that he is so street smart that he must find it hard when his teammates dont match him in that aspect.

Maybe. I think it's more of a thing that he doesn't like it when a situation starts to go against him and tends to panic a little. He's a great batsman but as leader, lacks tact. Trust me I've met and trained with him and he's not real tactful. Worse is brother Dean, though.

And yeah warne would have made a grt captain. But like Ravi shastri we can only speculate abt how good they would have been.

Did Shastri ever captain India? I'm basing my opinion of Warne on what I saw him do as captain. I never Saw Ravi captain. I tell ya, I saw quite enough of him in his 200 in Sydney, though!

 

[scorpio]

Okay well a lot of that stuff I didn't know about and I think that's indicative of that most media pressure against Ganguly was localised to India (one of the most populous countires in the world, given). I'm not saying that He's NEVER been under media pressure but it's been concentrated into a relatively short period of time. For his pre-captaincy days, all anyone talked about was his batting (rightly so). Since he's become captain, other issues have come to the fore. You expect more pressure as captain, though and he's not had to put up with stuff like that his entire career and Warnie hasn't even been captain yet! Imagine if he were!

The way I look at it is this; Warnie is a yobbo, macho moron who tends to attract negative publicity BUT it's my opinion that people follow him around just waiting for him to screw up. Most of the time, who cares?

Dood...most of the media pressure was not just in india...tons of former aussie players, pavilion.au.com, smh.au, melbournetimes or some thing, theage.com.au..i used to read these..ex indian players (a.k.a morons or grumblers) and throw in english media for good effect...

All of them got on the band wagon. It has only dropped recently when dravid , laxman failed to live up to expectations and sachin was reduced to a mortal. I could get you quotes...just that i am lazy to look for it.

Like warnie ganguly's case was on fall papers, discussed by all and sundry. And to think his only crime was standing up for his team and winning a series. The same media idolized waugh and treated SG like a pariah.

I dont understand how warne is portrayed as a dumb fella who just was stupid..while ganguly's is total arrogance ?

Warne was paid tons of dough to quit smoking. THe condition of the deal was some thing like not smoke for some months or so. The company was one which sold nicotine gum which discourages smoking.
Now if you think there was no incentive for any one to take a picture of him smoking then ( borrowing a word from yours and Roy's dictionary )you are deluded..lol

I never get the hype of celebritys affairs...like warne's ..lovely voice mails or ganguly's and sachin's affairs. But amazingly windies were very lucky in this. Sobers and richards had flings with indian actresses and one has richard's kid whom he visits often.

I agree with you abt the witch hunt abt him slapping some teenager. it sounded like a **** and bull story. But atleast it was juicy.

Warne's scrutiny is nothing compared to what azhar and sachin got. Only thing is you alws have the jobless english media joining to game.

Probably damaged pride, sour grapes etc. from losing the series. he Aussie team honestly thought they'd win easily and the loss was a VERY rude shock. I always thought the Aussie team took the Indians FAR too lightly to the extent where they seemed to think all they had to do was turn up and collect the Border-Gavaskar Trophy. I mean all the talk pre-series about how there wasn't a decent spin bowler in all of India was insane.

I dont agree with you except with your view that aussies were arrogant and ****y. But i can see that they prepared well..did the homework.
What went against them was the fact that they used the media just too well. Putting the indian team under siege on all sides led to a bunch of talented individuals fighting back with a nothing to lose attitude.
Also poor captaincy was one major reason they lost. You can check my other thread on analysis of the tour to see why i think waugh screwed it up.


[Edited on 8/6/02 by scorpio]

 

[scorpio]

Ravi shastri - If u have listened to his commentary you would have noticed that he is intelligent and savvy. He captained india is a couple of ODI's and won them and won a solitary test as captain ( He lead only once..) But the most important thing was he was ahead of his times and was a thinking vice captain.Pity he never got many chances.

 

[Top_Cat]

I dont understand how warne is portrayed as a dumb fella who just was stupid..while ganguly's is total arrogance ?

Consider it an indirect compliment to Ganguly; you need intelligence to be arrogant.

I see your point, though. The media tried to demonised Ganguly and it worked against the Aussies for sure.

Warne was paid tons of dough to quit smoking. THe condition of the deal was some thing like not smoke for some months or so. The company was one which sold nicotine gum which discourages smoking.
Now if you think there was no incentive for any one to take a picture of him smoking then ( borrowing a word from yours and Roy's dictionary )you are deluded..lol

Yeah of course that's incentive but should it happen? I mean if I had evidence that Sachin was cheating on his wife, a picture would sure be worth a million bucks but should I look for it? To me, that's interference in someone's private life.

Mind you, Warnie DID make the deal public and so should have been prepared to take the consequences of that. If anything it probably highlights the difficulty in giving up. Even with a HUGE financial incentive, he STILL coudn't do it.

I never get the hype of celebritys affairs...like warne's ..lovely voice mails or ganguly's and sachin's affairs. But amazingly windies were very lucky in this. Sobers and richards had flings with indian actresses and one has richard's kid whom he visits often.

NO WAY!!!! That's very interesting...............not a surprise with Viv, though. He virtually told the reader in his autobiography that'd he'd cheated on Miriam.

Man, it's time to start up another forum; the General Gossip Forum.

Warne's scrutiny is nothing compared to what azhar and sachin got.

Now THIS I agree with. As bad as it gets for Warnie, Sachin is a guy who I will perpetually feel sorry for.

I dont agree with you except with your view that aussies were arrogant and ****y. But i can see that they prepared well..did the homework.

Oh of course they did but when 'Plan A' went to hell, where was the 'Plan B' and 'Plan C' for Laxman when he started to hit the Aussies around and Harhajan when he started to bowl really well? This is the biggest problem with Steve Waugh's captaincy. He comes up with an idea which 'should' work but when it doesn't he doesn't have much of an idea of what to do next and reverts to harm minimisation. Plus, as I said, the Aussie team took the Indians far too lightly. Same in the one-day series at home last season. The Aussies just assumed they'd thrash the NZ's and SA when in reality, they were better prepared than the Aussies in virtually all respects.

Ravi shastri - If u have listened to his commentary you would have noticed that he is intelligent and savvy. He captained india is a couple of ODI's and won them and won a solitary test as captain ( He lead only once..) But the most important thing was he was ahead of his times and was a thinking vice captain.Pity he never got many chances.

I agree. His commentary is interesting to listen to and he's not quite as biased as most commentators.

 

[aussie_beater]

NO WAY!!!! That's very interesting...............not a surprise with Viv, though. He virtually told the reader in his autobiography that'd he'd cheated on Miriam.

Man, it's time to start up another forum; the General Gossip Forum.

Viv probably got hooked with Neena Gupta(actress) in the 1987 tour.And it became public knowledge after that.

These affairs cause bad publicity for sure...specially for Indian players who just can't cope with these properly.Azhar was visibly ticked off when his affair came to light and probably the one affair that has affected a batsman more then any other in recent times is that of Ganguly just before the Aussies tour of 2001.McGrath definitely used that to his advantage in the field when he managed to get under Ganguly's skin by refering lewdly to the lady in question.

 

[royGilchrist]

Captaincy just hastened the process of weaknesses being found out.

Just because this suits ur argument u use the word 'hastened'. The real fact is simple: He was overall a very good batsman but could not handle the pressures of captaincy and his batting suffered i.e. 46 to 34. tweleve runs swing is very significant.

I have been saying all along that his batting suffered as a result of captaincy, but everytime u change the original argument into saying that he has been much stronger on flat tracks. There is no denying that. But as an international cricketer u have to play on all kinds of conditions )seaming, bouncy, flat etc) and against all kinds of attacks (fast, spin, high class, inferior). And FYI, you are measured against all of them combined! If he was averaging 46 (no matter whoever he played well against), that was good, and if he averages 34 after becoming captain he has declined big time. Next time please care to answer this specific point.

U brought up Javed as an example. There is no denying he has been the best Pak batsman in history. But ur argument about Ganguly being stronger against weaker attacks and flatter tracks, also fits Miandad very closely, and it fits many batsmen similarly.

Miandad averaged 38 in Aus, 46 in england (bloated by a 260 on an extremely flat oval track which the Pak/Indian ground people would have been proud of), and 34 in WI. All significantly lower than his career average of 53. In contrast he scored at 61 in Pak and 77 in NZ, both much easier conditions. Javed is obviously one step ahead of Saurav as a batsman but they are both better at flat tracks. They cant be blamed for that.

Stop hiding. Its ok you can come out..we wont hurt you..hehe

Oooh! how can I, u scaring me

BTW, I have been as pleasant as possible in this email, not condescending in any way.

The commentators and expert u borught up:

Shastri - Very neutral but I dont think I have ever heard him say much intelligent.

Harsha Bhogle - Very good commentator, but he is a commentator not an expert. Its a bit shocking really that you are comparing him with Ian Chappell. He is very neutral though and a delight to hear.

Richie Benuad - Good exmaple

Gavaskar - Very intelligent comments and very neutral, maybe if Ian Chappel woiuld be too much, Gavaskar would be my choice for ICC president.

Boycott - Unbelieveably single dimensional. Very honest and neutral, but his overall cricket comments are emotion and pasison more than anything. His comments on specifically batting are quite good though.

If you get a chance to hear Ian Chappell and Imran together in the WC, or IC and Richie Benaud, listen to them carefully and you might appreciate what intelligent commentary could be like.

 

[Top_Cat]

Boycott - Unbelieveably single dimensional. Very honest and neutral, but his overall cricket comments are emotion and pasison more than anything. His comments on specifically batting are quite good though.

I've noticed that Boycs offers the most insightful technical advice of all commentators I've heard. Plus when he sees something he likes, he does praise players a lot, contrary to those who say he's generally negative. Sure he doesn't put up with any 'rooooobish' but if you bowl well or bat well you'll get quite a bit of praise from Boycs.

I've listened to him dissectt the technique of many players and he's generally spot on the mark.

 

[royGilchrist]

Yeah he is very passionate, his comments come from the heart and very sincere, also very intelligent remarks specifically on batting technique. But in general comments he generally gets carried away. ie.e he would write off temas and players very soon, only to find out that they end up proving him wrong.

He is very honest though and would be the first one to admit his mistake.

 

[scorpio]

originally posted by roygilchrist

Just because this suits ur argument u use the word 'hastened'. The real fact is simple: He was overall a very good batsman but could not handle the pressures of captaincy and his batting suffered i.e. 46 to 34. tweleve runs swing is very significant.
.......

Next time please care to answer this specific point.

I have to agree with full lenghts views abt you. How abt reading wht i wrote before. Or atleast change your arguments for godsake.

Here i am answering it for one last time...next time atleast post some thing new.

I posted this twice ...this is the 3rd time...



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


South Africa in India, 1996/97 - avg 21.5
India in West Indies, 1996/97 - 19.5
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 1997/98 - 32.2
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in Australia, 1999/00 - 29.5
South Africa in India, 1999/00 - 11.75

These are his avg in various series before he became captain. How did he get his avg to 46 then ? Here take this..

India in England, 1996 - 105.0
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 1996/97 - 87.0
India in Sri Lanka, 1997/98 - 64
Sri Lanka in India, 1997/98 - 98
India in Zimbabwe, 1998/99 - 41
New Zealand in India, 1999/00 - 125


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What those stats tell u is that...ON PACY WICKETS HE AVERAGES AROUND 20.
ON SUBCONTINENT WICKETS AND BOWLING ATTACKS LIKE BANGLADESH HE AVERAGES 60+.

Since you dont know 60 - 20 is approximately a difference of 40 (my math is rusty).

Coming to the point...Ganguly played less tests away when he was away than when he was captain. Secondly he was not very high profile and he sucked anyway on pacy pitches.
But as you can see my grandfather can make lewd calls and no one cares. But when warne does that every one screams blue murder. why ? because he is HIGH PROFILE.

Ganguly failed in WI but he was forgiven coz he was new. When SA toured india (Cronje tour ) he was tested with short balls and he kept fending it. THe next big team which followed was OZ and by now he became captain and starting playin the game with the big boys.

Since you will never know..it is usually the policy of any decent bowling attack to go after the opposition captain. This time ganguly had no hiding place.

Now the story gets interesting. Once it is known that he hates being bowled short to...and he either fends or tries to defend awkwardly...bowlers like Wicramasinghe and even ZIMB bowling attack started bowling short.

But SG never came to terms with the fact tht he has a technical flaw. When he realised that in the WI tour recently he made good runs.

If u dont get this now you probably will never....

Hope you got that roy. By your argument shall we say Hick is a world class player. Oh in case you didnt know the worlds second best batsman is from india. He averages 54. His name is Kambli. Shall we say he is a grt player ( HE averaged a stunning 5 against windies at home)

BTW Imran and intelligence cant be used in the same sentence. It is like talkin Kapil and smartness which obviosly wont go together.

Plz plz give a coherent reply to this without rehashing the same rubbish which i have answered 3 times.

[Edited on 8/7/02 by scorpio]

 

[scorpio]

THis is the first time i am hearing that Boycott is not doing intelligent commentary. For godsake that guy analyses every ones technique and comes up minute points on AIR.

He praises every one who does well. When a pace bowler bowls crap he usally refers to his grt grandma or his loving mother in law as two instances of ppl who could do a better Job

Shastri is one of india's smartest commentators.

MAy be removing that ear plug might help u there mate..

 

[Top_Cat]

Scorpio, you may be frustrated but that wasn't neccessary. Enough bickering. Take it to email if you feel sufficient exasperation to continue the conversation. If this thread degenerates anymore, I'll close it.

Keep it civil, eh?

 

[scorpio]

Sorry mate...just got tired of banging my head against the wall. I edited my post..well actually had to take out only one line..

 

[Top_Cat]

No worries, Scorpio.

Now let's get this somewhere near where the topic was initially directed at!!

 

[luckyeddie]

First test.

Second starts tomorrow.

 

[royGilchrist]

Scorpio,

Argument # 1 - Ganguly's performance has declined since he became captain

Argument # 2 - Ganguly is a flat track bully and sucks on bouncy, seaming tracks against good bowling

The discussion started between me and you on argument # 1, and everytime I try to revisit that first argument you change the topic and go to argument # 2.

No matter who he scores more against (before or after captaincy), its a fact that his OVERALL performance declined since he became the captain.

This short and simple post might be able to get my point across....Shakespear wrote 'brevity is the soul of wit'

 

[scorpio]

Roy: You are not off the hook yet buddy,

These were the pearls of wisdom that u preached before getting ur ass whopped by facts..

Argument 1: SG is an idiot

Argument 2: Ganguly was one of the best Indian batsmen before he became the cap'n, and since he became cap, he is not the same batsman anymore

Argument 3: He is not a good captain by any means

Argument 4: Azhar, Sunny, Kapil etc were all better 

Argument 5: All the former cpatians I mentioned, did not become worse when made captain and that alone makes them better than Ganguly, Kapil bowling average improved by 3 runs (29 to 26 I think), some of his best batting innings were also as a captian, Azhar's batting average stayed roughly the same 45 (not captain), 44 (captain). 

Argument 6: He was overall a very good batsman but could not handle the pressures of captaincy and his batting suffered i.e. 46 to 34. tweleve runs swing is very significant.



Let me break it apart for one more time.

Arg 1: shall we agree that you are a bigger idiot with your inability to understand english or sentences which have more than 10 words?

Arg 2: Yep. He was the freakin best. Just that he coulndt make runs against SA, WIndies, AUS. Atleast now he is a better batsman in that he has come to terms with his limitations and is helped by his new found grit.

Arg 3: Please tell me how you came to that brilliant conclusion.

Arg 4: Your ignorance is ridiculous. I have refuted tht argument already. And your highness decided to acknowledge it only to a certain extent.

Arg 5: Azhar went thro one of the longest bad streaks till england came home and resurrected his career.Kapil was at the peak of his career. And BTW ganguly now averages 38 as captain.Soon ur last straw will be taken away from you. ( Well if u read the reasons i have given you will knw why his avg dipped)

Arg 6: Read my post which i repeated four times..but you still didnt understand. May i suggest your reading glasses might be of some help?


Now give a clear answer instead of recycling ur rubbish again..will ya ?

 

[scorpio]

bringing it up..for a gentleman critic called "roygilchrist"