NZ's bowling without Bond

[Richard]

A question - has anyone noted that Shane Bond's Test record is good because he has played Bangladesh and India on ridiculously seam-friendly surfaces? He did well in West Indies, yes, but in Australia and Sri Lanka he was exposed. I expected the same to happen in India as well, but he escaped through injury.
New Zealand have been exceedingly badly affected by injuries since the '00\'01 tour of Zimbabwe and South Africa, especially in bowling. However, can this just be caused by bad luck? When something happens consistently, to many different players, for a long period (nearly 3 years) you have to question whether it's entirely down to bad-luck. Similar to the England situation in the last 2 years.
Almost inevitably, there will be some freak accidents, but even these can be prevented in some cases (for instance - why did no-one tell Simon Jones to take more care in Australia when sliding?). When you get repeated strained and pulled muscles, stiffness and stress-fractures, it begs the question: this is the 21st century. If physiotherapy and medicine hasn't worked-out how to avoid these, why are teams like Australia capable of having so few injuries.
It is a crying shame when you get careers of talented bowlers like Allott, Nash, O'Connor, Cairns, Doull and Vettori unfulfilled due to injury.
It cannot just be coincidence, and it's certainly a not-insignificant part in their success. The medical side of cricket is one which I think gets far too little attention. Expectance of playing through the pain-barrier is far too often incurred.
Finally, New Zealand's attack on the India tour is useless by Test standards, yes, but I still think it would cause trouble to most first-grade sides, in Sydney or anywhere else. A best New Zealand XI would look something like this for me:
Richardson \ Horne
Vincent
Fleming
Astle
McMillan
Cairns
Hart
Vettori
?
?
?
The loss of Allott, O'Connor, Nash and Doull is such a problem.

 

[Craig]

You should also note Richard that Tuffey is only good on green seaming wickets. Outside of that he has been exposed.

 

[marc71178]

I would personally have Youhana in the top 10 Test batsman currently. I think he's an outstanding batsman. In ODI cricket he's also exceptionally good and very near to Inzi as an allround player if not on par.

And he can run between the wickets!

 

[gibbsnsmith]

ROFL!

 

[Kiwi]

You should also note Richard that Tuffey is only good on green seaming wickets. Outside of that he has been exposed.

It is easy to say that the bowlers are **** like everyone here is. Why don't you put forward some people that can bowl better? Simply because they are the best that we have got. Why don't we get in behind them and give them a little credit for the hard work that they are doing. If they get 4 or 5 wickets or bowl well it is always overlooked for a Astle century or something similar.

Just like the way people coment about Steve Harmision and Ajit Agarkar on here. They are free to comment, but personally I think these guys are good players and they wouldn't be playing for there country just to make it a joke. How would you feel if this was you being commented about.

Talking with one of the current Black caps at the weekend and he said he is scared to read the papers, or watch the news now because all he hears is critisim about himself and his team mates. Never does he hear how they are the best people. They are there because they are the best we have got. They don't select the team for a laugh, they select it to play the best cricket they can for there country.

If we have 11 batters better than 4 bowlers, do we select the 11 batter? No we don't because it simply is not get the best players out on the field but getting the right balance as well.

As for Shane Bond. He is not the greatest bowler to ever come out of NZ as people are saying. He is just an average bowler with a very strong mental mind. And he suceeds through one thing. HARD WORK.

 

[gibbsnsmith]

I agree with you Tamara completely there..jokes aside i think the criticised AA, harmison, Tuffey, Flintoff are all decent bowlers and have worked hard to get where they are.

 

[Richard]

It is easy to say that the bowlers are **** like everyone here is. Why don't you put forward some people that can bowl better? Simply because they are the best that we have got. Why don't we get in behind them and give them a little credit for the hard work that they are doing. If they get 4 or 5 wickets or bowl well it is always overlooked for a Astle century or something similar.

Just like the way people coment about Steve Harmision and Ajit Agarkar on here. They are free to comment, but personally I think these guys are good players and they wouldn't be playing for there country just to make it a joke. How would you feel if this was you being commented about.

Talking with one of the current Black caps at the weekend and he said he is scared to read the papers, or watch the news now because all he hears is critisim about himself and his team mates. Never does he hear how they are the best people. They are there because they are the best we have got. They don't select the team for a laugh, they select it to play the best cricket they can for there country.

If we have 11 batters better than 4 bowlers, do we select the 11 batter? No we don't because it simply is not get the best players out on the field but getting the right balance as well.

As for Shane Bond. He is not the greatest bowler to ever come out of NZ as people are saying. He is just an average bowler with a very strong mental mind. And he suceeds through one thing. HARD WORK.

It is a fair point, one I have often though - how would I feel if it was me being criticised. I don't think it would personally worry me - I am not much of a bowler and I readily admit it, I don't like pretending to myself that I'm something I'm not.
Personally, I take an ultra-critical view of things. I dislike the notion of trying to see the best in everything. I do not mind my cricketing exploits being criticised if I think I deserve even some of it.
However, this is not the case for all people and if I were an internationally-recognised correspondant I would have to bear this in mind. Cricket might come before cricket teams and cricket players but people come before cricket.
However, the notion that just because the selectors believe someone is amongst the best 11 (or 16, or however many are in the squad) players in the country it automatically means they are. Ability and potential is not something possible to quantify and ultimately it's entirely opinionative.

 

[Kiwi]

I don't know what level you play Richard or how serious you are about your cricket etc. I know that the higher you get the more critisim you will get. And usually it is harsher.

The reason I am so against making fun of people like AA and Harmision and tuffey is because I know the work that they have put in, I know how much **** they are getting. In the end we play the best we can and if that isn't good enough then is it really worth putting your name out there for a joke.

Last season I had exactly that. It got to the stage I would basicly cry myself to sleep at night because I was young, inexperienced and didn't know how to handle the position I had been thrown into. I lost the love of the game I had, and I feared walking out to bat because I felt everyone was wanting me to fail. I was almost correct. Kiwis love to drag people down. Only my team mates wanted to see success from me.

I didn't talk about it too anyone, and when I finally did, 2 months later my cricket had suffered badly. My friends though I was a snobby person who had mental issues. I failed all my exams and almost stuffed the chance of going to uni. And worst of all my health suffered so badly I lost 11 kgs in the month of Feburary alone. And for someone who wieghts only 61 kgs it is a bit of a worry.

All that started because of a few people going on about how crap I was and how I didn't deserve the chances of playing in higher grades. You may be saying well AA or Harmision are never going to read this. But are you so sure. I know of a few Black caps who have visited this site so maybe we should respect the work people put into get to where they want.

 

[Craig]

BUT they are professional cricketers.

 

[anzac]

I think the NZ seam bowling attack in the 1st Test did a commendable job considering the circumstances. The weakness is a lack of penetration (pace), so they had to change tactics accordingly & India obliged.

Bowlers have to perform a certain type of role and not everyone's main priority is to take wickets. A lot of bowlers also perform better if they can establish a bowling partnership, which may involve them not being the main wicket taker, yet their performance is every bit as important as that of the wicket taker.

I don't know why people are still keen to bag Tuffey. His figures are quite respectable and he has put in a lot of hard work to improve himself. IMO he has performed better since having a genuine 'strike' bowler such as Bond at the other end. His style will not suit many pitches because of his plack of pace, consequently he will get picked off by the better batsmen. However he does not fall apart re his line & length like he used to.

Oram is a genuine 3rd seamer as opposed to an opening bowler. While he again lacks pace and does not take many wickets he usually has the best RPO of the seam attack - that is his job.

If the 2nd pitch has more bounce as predicted, then I would expect both Tuffey & Oram to be more effective than in the 1st Test.

 

[Richard]

I don't know what level you play Richard or how serious you are about your cricket etc. I know that the higher you get the more critisim you will get. And usually it is harsher.

The reason I am so against making fun of people like AA and Harmision and tuffey is because I know the work that they have put in, I know how much **** they are getting. In the end we play the best we can and if that isn't good enough then is it really worth putting your name out there for a joke.

Last season I had exactly that. It got to the stage I would basicly cry myself to sleep at night because I was young, inexperienced and didn't know how to handle the position I had been thrown into. I lost the love of the game I had, and I feared walking out to bat because I felt everyone was wanting me to fail. I was almost correct. Kiwis love to drag people down. Only my team mates wanted to see success from me.

I didn't talk about it too anyone, and when I finally did, 2 months later my cricket had suffered badly. My friends though I was a snobby person who had mental issues. I failed all my exams and almost stuffed the chance of going to uni. And worst of all my health suffered so badly I lost 11 kgs in the month of Feburary alone. And for someone who wieghts only 61 kgs it is a bit of a worry.

All that started because of a few people going on about how crap I was and how I didn't deserve the chances of playing in higher grades. You may be saying well AA or Harmision are never going to read this. But are you so sure. I know of a few Black caps who have visited this site so maybe we should respect the work people put into get to where they want.

A fellow called Mark Saxelby, a professional county player, comitted suicide not too long ago, chiefly because he felt so uncomfortable about people doubting his ability.
Some people are more sensitive than others and this should always be borne in mind, in cricket and in any other public criticism.
For us on here, it's not a worry, because we're not internationally recognised correspondants, but if I were I would take great care not to show overt contempt for players ability as it's not fair and they're all better than I or any fellow correspondant will ever be.
Really, I have far more contempt for the supporters of players I believe substandard than for the players themselves, because a player who is not doing his best is very rare and you can't ask more than that.

 

[Richard]

I think the NZ seam bowling attack in the 1st Test did a commendable job considering the circumstances. The weakness is a lack of penetration (pace), so they had to change tactics accordingly & India obliged.

Bowlers have to perform a certain type of role and not everyone's main priority is to take wickets. A lot of bowlers also perform better if they can establish a bowling partnership, which may involve them not being the main wicket taker, yet their performance is every bit as important as that of the wicket taker.

I don't know why people are still keen to bag Tuffey. His figures are quite respectable and he has put in a lot of hard work to improve himself. IMO he has performed better since having a genuine 'strike' bowler such as Bond at the other end. His style will not suit many pitches because of his plack of pace, consequently he will get picked off by the better batsmen. However he does not fall apart re his line & length like he used to.

Oram is a genuine 3rd seamer as opposed to an opening bowler. While he again lacks pace and does not take many wickets he usually has the best RPO of the seam attack - that is his job.

If the 2nd pitch has more bounce as predicted, then I would expect both Tuffey & Oram to be more effective than in the 1st Test.

Tuffey and Oram aren't ineffective on pitches like the typical Indian one because of lack of pace, they're ineffective because they only have one way of moving the ball - seam. In New Zealand, most pitches offer some seam and hence both are good Test bowlers in New Zealand. In India, seam-movement is rarely seen and you need to be able to use skills most bowlers find more subtle - cut, swing, reverse-swing.
And, of course, you need consistent accuracy. Tuffey and Oram are more accurate than some but not, in my view, Test standard in that dept.

 

[gibbsnsmith]

BUT they are professional cricketers.

i dont see your point here...

 

[Kiwi]

BUT they are professional cricketers.

Wow, professional mean that they are good at what they do, and that they get payed to play cricket. They do NOT get payed to be bagged. If they really were **** players then I wouldn't mind as much but they aren't. They are good players. All of them wouldn't be playing for there countries if they weren't.

For us on here, it's not a worry, because we're not internationally recognised correspondants

DOes that really matter. This site wants to be the best that it can right?? It wants to be professional in the stuff at does. Really having a AAAS is not the grestest of starts. If someone really didn't like it they could take you to court. The chances of it happening are 1 in a million but it could happen.

 

[Rich2001]

DOes that really matter. This site wants to be the best that it can right?? It wants to be professional in the stuff at does. Really having a AAAS is not the grestest of starts. If someone really didn't like it they could take you to court. The chances of it happening are 1 in a million but it could happen.

Iam not really sure on what grounds you could sue Tamara, agreed it might not show somthing in the best of lights... but at the end of the day it's just a opinion of a few people, that isn't reflected by the site as a whole... it's not like anyone has stole copyrighted information or other such things, Afterall i've never seen a company/person sued on Opinions eg every match report stated things like "XXX had a shocker" or "XXX played well below his best" would be at risk, and as I saw last night on a phone in chat thingy the presenter stated we are all free to our own opinions and that's fine, afterall we don't live in a communist evironment like Russia was etc where you all did as you are told.

 

[Kiwi]

Fair enough rich. I am not trying to get at the site, I just know what these guys are going through. It must be one of the toughest jobs on the planet. Mentally it can destroy you and we really don't make it easy for them do we.

I just get angry at it when people go on about it when these guys are training 6 days a week. Giving up social life, giving up a private life to represent your country and all they get back from that country is that you are a **** player and a total joke.

People say a cricketer must have a dream life, but as far as I can see it is far from it. I love the game, but a line has to be draw between the love, and the point of destroying everything.

I just think the AA joke has gone far to far now. But I am not going to even try and stop anything. After all I am sure none of you could go and score a century like he has. All you young cricketers just remember that one day it could be you they are talking about, and then see how you like it.

 

[marc71178]

Really having a AAAS is not the grestest of starts.

Except the AAAS is absolutely nothing to do with Cricketweb as an entity, it is a group of us who happen to visit - there's a distinct difference!

I must admit that when we started it, it was a bit of a joke in response to some quite stupid claims, but I actually now want to see him play and do well!

 

[warrioryohannan]

Youhana and Khan are both good players, who would be pushing for selection in most Test sides.

To say NZ rely on Bond is a bit strage if you ask me (since he's only played 10 Test matches)

I agree on Youhanna, but Khan wouldn't find a place in any side except Bangladesh (now he isn't in Pak team anymore)

AS for NZ bowlers, Oram and others can do wonders on home pitches, but NZ need the pace of Bond to unsettle the Indian batters on Indian pitches!

 

[warrioryohannan]

If that's the case, why isn't he playing every game when he's in the squad then?

He's a good player, but if he were World Class, his "other than performance" would be overlooked.

Saqlain is a world class offspinner, someone who has performed well almost everywhere, even against the best spin playing batsmen i.e the Indians.

The way Pak selectors work, except for a few individuals, noone really plays all the game. Saqlain isn't in the good looks of the selectors and the captain, in Pakistan cricket, personal likes and dislikes count more than performance!

 

[gibbsnsmith]

Except the AAAS is absolutely nothing to do with Cricketweb as an entity, it is a group of us who happen to visit - there's a distinct difference!

I must admit that when we started it, it was a bit of a joke in response to some quite stupid claims, but I actually now want to see him play and do well!

not entirely convinced there

But i hope you are becuase like i said he is actualy a decent plaer and better than most of us could hope to be.