nz man4man better than australia

[Top_Cat]

Still means that he's not good enough to get in the side. I'll put it another way. Brad Hogg hasn't played test cricket so we aren't able to judge how good a batter he is at that level.

Exactly what Marc has been saying all along and so on the basis of statistics you CAN compare them on (ODI's and FC), Hogg wins.

Hogg ODI's: 60 matches, 475 runs, HS of 71*, ave of 23.75, SR 80.10, 2 50's.
Vettori: 149 matches, 833 runs, HS of 83, ave of 13.43, SR of 77.77, 1 50.

Hogg FC: 89 matches, 3571 runs, HS of 158, ave of 34.66, 4 100's and 24 50's
Vettori: 100 matches, 2596 runs, HS of 137*, ave of 22.00, 2 100's and 14 50's.

Hogg domestic OD's: 156 matches, 2042 runs, HS of 94*, ave of 29.17, 6 50's.
Vettori: 209 matches, 1864 runs, HS of 138, ave of 18.64, 2 100's and 5 50's.

The thing is, Hogg has always been considered an allrounder whereas Vettori has been considered at all levels, a bowler who can bat relatively well and this is reflected in those stats.

 

[Fiery]

Exactly what Marc has been saying all along and so on the basis of statistics you CAN compare them on (ODI's and FC), Hogg wins.

Hogg ODI's: 60 matches, 475 runs, HS of 71*, ave of 23.75, SR 80.10, 2 50's.
Vettori: 149 matches, 833 runs, HS of 83, ave of 13.43, SR of 77.77, 1 50.

Hogg FC: 89 matches, 3571 runs, HS of 158, ave of 34.66, 4 100's and 24 50's
Vettori: 100 matches, 2596 runs, HS of 137*, ave of 22.00, 2 100's and 14 50's.

Hogg domestic OD's: 156 matches, 2042 runs, HS of 94*, ave of 29.17, 6 50's.
Vettori: 209 matches, 1864 runs, HS of 138, ave of 18.64, 2 100's and 5 50's.

The thing is, Hogg has always been considered an allrounder whereas Vettori has been considered at all levels, a bowler who can bat relatively well and this is reflected in those stats.

And as I said earlier. 1st class batting averages are generally about 10 runs lower than Australian 1st class averages as the pitches we play on over here aren't as good to bat on.

 

[Top_Cat]

Oh yeah? Explain Vettori's two domestic OD tons to Hogg's none if the pitches are so bad, then. Taking into consideration they bat at similar places in the order for their domestic teams.

Look, the numbers are almost all so far in favour of Hogg (were not JUST talking averages, for example) that you can't seriously still be arguing in favour of Vettori.

 

[Fiery]

Oh yeah? Explain Vettori's two domestic OD tons to Hogg's none if the pitches are so bad, then. Taking into consideration they bat at similar places in the order for their domestic teams.

Look, the numbers are almost all so far in favour of Hogg (were not JUST talking averages, for example) that you can't seriously still be arguing in favour of Vettori.

So let me get this straight. You want me to explain why Vettori's 2 domestic ODI tons to Hogg's none is a valid point in arguing that he is a better batsman?

 

[LongHopCassidy]

I think averages are a better indicator of a batsman's worth.

Case in point: Ray Lindwall and Alan Davidson.

Lindwall had two Test centuries to Davidson's none, but Davo's average was noticeably higher and he was rated the superior batsman.

 

[Ming]

Oh yeah? Explain Vettori's two domestic OD tons to Hogg's none if the pitches are so bad, then. Taking into consideration they bat at similar places in the order for their domestic teams.

Look, the numbers are almost all so far in favour of Hogg (were not JUST talking averages, for example) that you can't seriously still be arguing in favour of Vettori.

Vettori opens for ND.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

And as I said earlier. 1st class batting averages are generally about 10 runs lower than Australian 1st class averages as the pitches we play on over here aren't as good to bat on.

If we were comparing someone averaging 55 and someone averaging 45, 10 runs might be a reasonable gap considering the different pitch types. 34 to 22 is a huge gap however.

 

[Fiery]

If we were comparing someone averaging 55 and someone averaging 45, 10 runs might be a reasonable gap considering the different pitch types. 34 to 22 is a huge gap however.

I know that Brag Hogg has a pretty good 1st class record and is probably considered an allrounder at that level but until he gets to prove himself against the world's best bowling attacks at test cricket level it's hard to compare them really. Vettori has improved to the level where he can now be considered an allrounder himself. On current batting form Vettori is better.

 

[benchmark00]

I know that Brag Hogg has a pretty good 1st class record and is probably considered an allrounder at that level but until he gets to prove himself against the world's best bowling attacks at test cricket level it's hard to compare them really. Vettori has improved to the level where he can now be considered an allrounder himself. On current batting form Vettori is better.

Youre only as good as your last innings, what did Vetorri make again

 

[Ming]

What did Fleming get again?

Do you want Vettori to consistently make 50s batting at 9 in every ODI?

 

[Burpey]

Vettori is a better batsman than Hogg by far ... I am surprised you are even debating it

 

[benchmark00]

What did Fleming get again?

Do you want Vettori to consistently make 50s batting at 9 in every ODI?

It was a joke...

 

[benchmark00]

Vettori is a better batsman than Hogg by far ... I am surprised you are even debating it

And your evidence is? We have put forth evidence showing why we thing Hogg is a better batsmen (especially in ODI's)...

 

[benchmark00]

Vettori is a better batsman than Hogg by far ... I am surprised you are even debating it

And your evidence is? We have put forth evidence showing why we thing Hogg is a better batsman (especially in ODI's)...

 

[Burpey]

who is better is not all stats mate ... hayden averages more than dougie walters did and dougie is a much better bat than him

 

[Burpey]

who is better is not all stats mate ... hayden averages more than dougie walters did and dougie is a much better bat than him

for example

 

[Richard]

A fallacy.

If the wickets remain, runs come regardless of the bowling.

So it's now impossible to stop runs being scored.
Rubbish, having wickets in hand does not make good bowling any easier to get away. Bowl properly at the end of the innings and no-one can score at much more than 6-an-over.

 

[Richard]

When Warnie is the number 1 spinner in the side and Stuey MacGill the second, 99.9999999% of the population wouldn't good enough. Bit harsh, mate.

All the same I'd not back Hogg to get into too many of the up-to-standard Test-sides - West Indies maybe, New Zealand just maybe, but not anyone else.

 

[Richard]

Thats the tactic we're trying to use now and it has failed us 3 times from 3. For the next game I think we should just try and whack Lee. Astle in particular gets out when he scratches around trying to stay in

Don't know if the same thing has been happening this series but in the Champions Trophy Astle tried to hit Lee far too hard and as a result missed countless Half-Volleys and fullish deliveries.
Certainly the best way to deal with Lee in ODIs is to attack him as far as I'm concerned - run down the pitch, cut off a length - the more you do that, the more it fires him up, and generally the worse he bowls. And he bowls poorly enough often enough anyway.
You certainly can't try to sit on Lee when McGrath and Gillespie are in the side, because if you get more than 80 off their 20 it's a bonus.

 

[Richard]

this has been their basic tactic for some time - preservation of wickets to build a platform for the 'hitters' in the lower order..............unfortunately it does not always work esp against the top teams.........

I haven't looked at the stats but I'd be interested to see what the partnerships have been for the opening wicket since Astle's return..............

Astle since his return in 2004 has averaged just 29.33 with just 4 half-centuries in 15 innings.
It's not quite as bad as I'd thought before I looked at it, but it's been very out of character.
Before his comeback in 2004, 84 of his 171 ODI innings had ended in sub-15 scores. Since then, he's only been out for single-figures twice in those 15 innings. He's been pretty consistent, but he doesn't often explode to 20 or 30 - or 50. I've always been surprised how low his strike-rate actually is, at 72.45 time of this post, for such a potentially explosive player.
His top-score has been just 70 and I just hope one of those big centuries is around the corner - ideally in a match-winning cause. Because he needs it.