nz man4man better than australia

[Richard]

They should have tried opening with vettori in this match, or in the next too

yea a little variation in the order cant hurt

I've never been a fan of lower-order batsmen (Vettori isn't quite a tail-ender) coming in at the top of the order, hardly ever works.
And yes, it can do some harm - if he were to blast 50 off 30 deliveries in the next game it'd then be tried for the next 5 games or so, and probably it'd always be in the minds of the selectors thereafter.
I mean, when was the last time NZ had a consistently settled opening partnership in ODIs? Astle's always been a relatively constant presence - but no sooner has Fleming started to have consistent success there, then Astle is first demoted to three, then injured.
If Craig Cumming is being picked there can't, I suppose, be too many other good one-day openers going around ATM, but it's a real shame, because NZ have almost always had some of the tools for a fantastic ODI side - they've just almost always lacked a good opening partnership.

 

[Richard]

Hogg is definitely a better batsman than Vettori. And as for bowling, well, Vettori is more economical, but that's about it.

As for this, I can't even believe it's being debated.
Hogg is a much better batsman than Vettori - he wouldn't get a game for his state, never mind Australia, otherwise.
Yes, Vettori's domestic records don't really provide a great indication, he's a better batsman than they'd suggest and has been getting better in the last 2 years or so. But Hogg would make most county sides purely as a batsman. Vettori'd certainly be a good all-rounder, too. I'd even go as far as to say Hogg's probably a better batsman than bowler in the First-Class game.
Vettori's a better ODI bowler, though, no questions. And beyond question a better bowler in Tests.

 

[tooextracool]

Exactly what Marc has been saying all along and so on the basis of statistics you CAN compare them on (ODI's and FC), Hogg wins.

Hogg ODI's: 60 matches, 475 runs, HS of 71*, ave of 23.75, SR 80.10, 2 50's.
Vettori: 149 matches, 833 runs, HS of 83, ave of 13.43, SR of 77.77, 1 50.

Hogg FC: 89 matches, 3571 runs, HS of 158, ave of 34.66, 4 100's and 24 50's
Vettori: 100 matches, 2596 runs, HS of 137*, ave of 22.00, 2 100's and 14 50's.

Hogg domestic OD's: 156 matches, 2042 runs, HS of 94*, ave of 29.17, 6 50's.
Vettori: 209 matches, 1864 runs, HS of 138, ave of 18.64, 2 100's and 5 50's.

The thing is, Hogg has always been considered an allrounder whereas Vettori has been considered at all levels, a bowler who can bat relatively well and this is reflected in those stats.

except that that doesnt look at the difference in conditions. from the games that i see in australia, they have the flattest wickets in the world, and im fairly sure that conditions in NZ are a lot harder for the batsmen

 

[marc71178]

Yeah, it means that one of them isn't good enough

So if the roles were reversed you think Vettori would play for Australia?

 

[marc71178]

And as I said earlier. 1st class batting averages are generally about 10 runs lower than Australian 1st class averages as the pitches we play on over here aren't as good to bat on.

Even if you take 10 off, Hogg's still better

 

[marc71178]

Vettori is a better batsman than Hogg by far ... I am surprised you are even debating it

I can't see Vettori averaging 70 over a season.

 

[marc71178]

So it's now impossible to stop runs being scored.
Rubbish, having wickets in hand does not make good bowling any easier to get away. Bowl properly at the end of the innings and no-one can score at much more than 6-an-over.

So suddenly 6 is the limit as supposed to 4.5?

Wickets in hand allow risks to be taken, and the weight of evidence supplied by the game on the field (rather than in your mind) shows that wickets in hand mean more runs in the death overs.

 

[Fiery]

So if the roles were reversed you think Vettori would play for Australia?

He probably would, yes. He would definitely make the side ahead of Hogg.

 

[Fiery]

Even if you take 10 off, Hogg's still better

I'm saying Vettori is a better batsman than Hogg at the moment.
Are you Australian marc because you seem to have a bias towards them and there is a strong anti-kiwi thread in your posts? I was assuming you were an Englishman.

 

[marc71178]

He probably would, yes.

Ahead of Warne.

Pull the other one.

 

[marc71178]

I'm saying Vettori is a better batsman than Hogg at the moment.

And the facts are saying a completely different matter.

Are you Australian marc because you seem to have a bias towards them and there is a strong anti-kiwi thread in your posts?

No, I am most definitely not Australian.

 

[Fiery]

Ahead of Warne.

Pull the other one.

No, but if they were taking 2 spinners into a test he would probably get in ahead of McGill

 

[marc71178]

Playing 2 spinners happens so often

Vettori would play no more than Hogg has.

 

[Fiery]

And the facts are saying a completely different matter.




No, I am most definitely not Australian.

What facts? 1st class batting averages? As I said before, Hogg hasn't played test cricket and faced the best bowlers in the world. Test figures are included in 1st class remember. Vettori has and has scored a century and 8 50s and has improved consistently to a point now where his batting is good enough for him to be called an allrounder. If I had the 2 guys in my team I would put Vettori higher than Hogg in the batting order.

 

[Top_Cat]

All the same I'd not back Hogg to get into too many of the up-to-standard Test-sides - West Indies maybe, New Zealand just maybe, but not anyone else.

Why not? He's a pivotal member of the number 1 ODI-playing nation in the world. He turns the ball a mile, no-one it seems can pick his wrong 'un or flipper (anyone remember theball he got Andy Flower with the WC?), he can bat and fields brilliantly. What's not to like?

And if you bring up his FC average, I'll cyber hit you. Don't forget where he plays half of his matches. Plus, he's performed consistently or Australia so, in my view that trumps his FC stats. Michael Vaughan, Marc Tresothick, etc. have mediocre FC stats yet they're in a test-playing side and in Vaughan's, up there with the very best in the world.

Bah, Hoggie's contribution goes beyond his mere numbers anyway. Can anyone explain how a supposed plodder like him can keep Stu MacGill out of the side when MacGill has the best domestic ODI numbers of any bowler in Australian history?

except that that doesnt look at the difference in conditions. from the games that i see in australia, they have the flattest wickets in the world, and im fairly sure that conditions in NZ are a lot harder for the batsmen

Not at FC level. For some inexplicable reason, the decks for Pura Cup games are generally much tougher to bat on than the Test/ODI pitches.

Besides, in matches away from home:

Vettori

Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St

unfiltered 149 833 83 13.43 0 1 139 5/30 34.21 1 33 0
filtered 41 236 33 11.80 0 0 47 4/14 30.63 0 10 0

Hogg

Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St

unfiltered 60 475 71* 23.75 0 2 71 5/32 30.08 2 16 0
filtered 21 193 53 32.16 0 1 23 5/41 35.00 1 4 0

Hoggie still wins.

I'm no Hoggie fan-boy but geez, anyone who's seen the two of them bat would surely recognise the guy who's a genuine allrounder (remember Hoggie was picked in the WA side initially a batsman/medium-pace bowler) and guy who is a bowler but has improved his batting.

 

[Fiery]

I'm no Hoggie fan-boy but geez, anyone who's seen the two of them bat would surely recognise the guy who's a genuine allrounder (remember Hoggie was picked in the WA side initially a batsman/medium-pace bowler) and guy who is a bowler but has improved his batting.

Improved his batting to a level that is now better than Hogg. Whether he wasn't as good in the past is irrelevant really.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Improved his batting to a level that is now better than Hogg. Whether he wasn't as good in the past is irrelevant really.

Have you ever even seen Hogg bat? Honestly. The guy began his career is a batsman, and has had significant success in the toughest FC competition in the world - as a batsman. Vettori isn't bad for a number 8/9. There is a big gap.

 

[Fiery]

Have you ever even seen Hogg bat? Honestly. The guy began his career is a batsman, and has had significant success in the toughest FC competition in the world - as a batsman. Vettori isn't bad for a number 8/9. There is a big gap.

I've seen Hogg bat many times and that's all I'm going by really. I concede that my argument is probably biased because I hate him. Hogg is a cheesy little muppet. It's the puffed out chest, horrible, horrible swept back haircut and permanent inane grin that make me just want to smash him in the face. Always first to go down on his knees with mouth open wide whenever an Australian bowler gets a wicket or to dry-hump the nearest teammate if by some miracle he manages to get one himself. He's second only to Lee as the most objectionable of the Aussie cricket team.
It's a shame there are a couple of guys in the team that make it hard for others to like your team. Respect there ability, of course, but like? No.

 

[Scallywag]

It's a shame there are a couple of guys in the team that make it hard for others to like your team. Respect there ability, of course, but like? No.

Do you think if anyone cares that you dont like Lee or Hogg, quite frankly I'm glad they p*ss you off.

Their job is to beat NZ in cricket and are doing a mighty fine job of it as well, you dont like them so boo hoo for you.

The very last thing that worries Aussies is how much you like our players.

 

[Fiery]

Do you think if anyone cares that you dont like Lee or Hogg, quite frankly I'm glad they p*ss you off.

Their job is to beat NZ in cricket and are doing a mighty fine job of it as well, you dont like them so boo hoo for you.

The very last thing that worries Aussies is how much you like our players.

OK that's enough Scallywag but you missed out a