capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Kohli was as good as Ponting circa 2012-19. Around the same length of time. Root never even got close to a 2018 SA, 2018 Eng or 2014 Aus. Remember you posting how some people still rate Kohli higher......
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Kapil Dev vs Ricky Ponting
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
BazBall21
International Captain
Kohli's decline has been very extreme, and Root has the consistent production to beat him.
I don't think Kapil's production is good enough to go up against Ponting.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Kohli for that time was better than Ponting's. His decline, as you previously stated; you don't penalise much of what happens at careers end.
kyear2
International Coach
That's your one comeback isn't it.
You've voted Dhoni as the 5th best keeper batsman ever, you once opened a thread asking if you were the only one who rated Sunny above Viv, you believe the only batsman comparable to Tendulkar is Hobbs and he's a tier above all else, despite not even achieving that over his career, and Dev is somehow better than multiple ATG batsmen.
kyear2
International Coach
Very much this
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
No, that's my best comeback.That's your one comeback isn't it.
You've voted Dhoni as the 5th best keeper batsman ever, you once opened a thread asking if you were the only one who rated Sunny above Viv, you believe the only batsman comparable to Tendulkar is Hobbs and he's a tier above all else, despite not even achieving that over his career, and Dev is somehow better than multiple ATG batsmen.
IIRC, Watling was voted the 5th best keeper batsman ever. Even Fuller Pilch have said he and Dhoni were pretty close with him slightly ahead (which I agree with) and there are a number of people who rate Dhoni higher.
I changed my stance eventually, and I got my answer. I wasn't the only one, and a majority did in fact rated them closer, which is perfectly fine I think now. It's as if HB asked if no one else rated Lara higher than Sachin; the answer would be mostly no, and according to most close.
Achieving what over his career?? I didn't said Hobbs and Tendulkar are a tier above, just that they only are really solid candidates for 2nd best in my eyes. So more like a sub tier. And you probably have a weak memory as you seem to forget when Lara retired most already rated Sachin higher and he played for 6 more years and struck one more peak.
Dev has previously defeated Dravid in a head to head poll, who to me is equal to Ponting, while you think is a tier behind for...... Reasons.
BazBall21
International Captain
Kohli's decline has been long and very extreme. I think fundamental weaknesses have caught up with him.
His days in the sun were a similar length to Botham's, but with only one discipline and the odd failing so not quite as good.
Ponting did bat in an easier era, but I don't think sustainability is a notable problem when compared to someone who was qualitively not as good. Ponting was a great batsman for nearly 15 years and consistently an ATG batsman for virtually a decade.
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capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
I am bored by now if this discussion, and pretty sure you too are. I think you are underselling Kapil hard as merely "good" player for a long career who never reached staggering highs. As previously stated, if you reach staggering heights, be sure you don't fall. Kohli did, Botham did as did Ponting (albeit less). I think overall record, irrespective of a players peak; is a much sounder indicator as it accounts for that peak; unless influenced by outside factors like injury. You clearly disagree, so no point blabbering more really. I generally respect your opinions, just don't align with this one.
BazBall21
International Captain
I think slightly better longevity would come into it if Kapil's production was better than it was. I don't think he underachieved much, and Ponting was a great batsman for a more than long enough time.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
It's Joe Root vs Ravindra Jadeja (both Ponting and Kapil only slightly ahead of Root and Jadeja, respectively). I will take Jadeja just.
BazBall21
International Captain
Root.
Jadeja has missed too many tough away games and I think he's quite condition dependent in both disciplines.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Jadeja is really not a batsman condition dependent, but I suffice. Will you say they aren't comparable though??
BazBall21
International Captain
Jadeja didn't play this test because they don't trust his batting on a pitch like that.
I think for the ATG pedestal he gets placed on, he just hasn't played good teams away from home frequently enough.
Obviously a very good player, but I don't take his averages at face value.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
Ofcourse no one takes his average in face value or else he would be placed alongside Imran Khan. Re this match, Washy is a good player. There really is no comprehensive way to justify his selection over both Ashwin and Jadeja. India has done similar thing in Australia before, giving Karn Sharma a debut (his only Test) in SCG, benching Ashwin despite taking 4 wickets the previous match; and resulted in India loosing with Lyon taking a 12-fer.
But just answer this; do you think Root and Jadeja are comparable or not?
BazBall21
International Captain
I wouldn't have to think about it before saying Root, so I wouldn't say they are comparable.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Garry Sobers is the second best cricketer of all time. But he isn't Bradman, not even close. You bucket Bradman and Sobers into one category stating that they are anomalies when the truth(that you wouldn't like to hear or accept) is that Bradman is the sole anomaly. A full 40 run average above any one else justifies that. You can be the second best cricketer of all time, and yet be behind the best cricketer of all time by a length similar to you are ahead of the 25th best cricketer of all time. As much gap exists between Bradman and Sobers (or probably more) as the gap between Sobers and lets say Gavaskar or Akram as cricketers. When Sobers played in 1960s, he was extremely highly rated (for right reasons) as he was unique compared to other players of his era. But with passage of time, other cricketers have come close to achieving his quality (but not quite equaled or surpassed him, like Imran whom you continuously disparage or Hadlee). Sobers isn't much of an anomaly in 2024 as one could make a case for him in 1960s. Bradman still is, probably ever will be. The reason I said Sobers is over-rated is not much because of his positioning, but because of the non-existing massive gap that you artificially assume between him and other great cricketers that came close to him.
Viv and Greenidge were part of the ATG WI team of 70s- 80s. They never had the headache of facing Roberts, Garner, Holding, Marshall, Ambrose or Walsh. Of course they had to face Lillee, Imran and Hadlee. You question the quality of the attack that Gavaskar faced in a few series (1971 WI and 1977 Australia for instance, which was undeniably weaker than these teams on an average in that era) and question his overall record, when it is pretty clear that on an average he faced better attacks than Viv and Greenidge faced. I rate Viv especially very highly and consider him a candidate for the second best batsman of all time, but at times it is overlooked that he didn't have to face his own bowlers and yet only averaged a tad over 50.
Marshall to many here is the best bowler of all time. However you consider that there is a good gap between him and Mcgrath/Hadlee, and have argued religiously here with anyone who place the other two over him, when it is a reasonable opinion to have those two ahead of him.
So, the reason I said WI cricketers are over-rated is not much because of their positioning, it is due to the inflated gap that is projected here between them and other worthy candidates.
DrWolverine
U19 Vice-Captain
Truth
PlayerComparisons
International Vice-Captain
I mean it’s not unreasonable to rate Kohli higher regardless of what some England fans say. Many people outside this forum still do. That said, neither of them are likely to end up rated as top tier greats sadly so doesn’t really matter who is better.