Garry Sobers is the second best cricketer of all time. But he isn't Bradman, not even close. You bucket Bradman and Sobers into one category stating that they are anomalies when the truth(that you wouldn't like to hear or accept) is that Bradman is the sole anomaly. A full 40 run average above any one else justifies that. You can be the second best cricketer of all time, and yet be behind the best cricketer of all time by a length similar to you are ahead of the 25th best cricketer of all time. As much gap exists between Bradman and Sobers (or probably more) as the gap between Sobers and lets say Gavaskar or Akram as cricketers. When Sobers played in 1960s, he was extremely highly rated (for right reasons) as he was unique compared to other players of his era. But with passage of time, other cricketers have come close to achieving his quality (but not quite equaled or surpassed him, like Imran whom you continuously disparage or Hadlee). Sobers isn't much of an anomaly in 2024 as one could make a case for him in 1960s. Bradman still is, probably ever will be. The reason I said Sobers is over-rated is not much because of his positioning, but because of the non-existing massive gap that you artificially assume between him and other great cricketers that came close to him.
Viv and Greenidge were part of the ATG WI team of 70s- 80s. They never had the headache of facing Roberts, Garner, Holding, Marshall, Ambrose or Walsh. Of course they had to face Lillee, Imran and Hadlee. You question the quality of the attack that Gavaskar faced in a few series (1971 WI and 1977 Australia for instance, which was undeniably weaker than these teams on an average in that era) and question his overall record, when it is pretty clear that on an average he faced better attacks than Viv and Greenidge faced. I rate Viv especially very highly and consider him a candidate for the second best batsman of all time, but at times it is overlooked that he didn't have to face his own bowlers and yet only averaged a tad over 50.
Marshall to many here is the best bowler of all time. However you consider that there is a good gap between him and Mcgrath/Hadlee, and have argued religiously here with anyone who place the other two over him, when it is a reasonable opinion to have those two ahead of him.
So, the reason I said WI cricketers are over-rated is not much because of their positioning, it is due to the inflated gap that is projected here between them and other worthy candidates.
Ok, the Sobers thing. You and apparently many others see Bradman as practically twice the batsman that everyone else is. I don't remotely see him that way. That doesn't only to Sobers, but Sachin, Hobbs, Richards etc as well.
The likely hood, based on attacks and conditions faced that he averages 100 in latter eras is 0.
And yes, any perusing of cricket literature or opinion has 3 players in that upper echelon, Bradman, Sobers and for those who delve further back in time, Grace. That's not disputable on any level.
I have not disparages Hadlee and I have said that he is the better comp for Sobers because he is also top tier as a bowler. I rate Hadlee top 5 all time and not that far behind those guys.
Re Marshall I think he's the best, but very much in the same tier as the other two. What separates him slightly from the others is his skill set, complete record and intangibles, similarly why I have McGrath slightly over Hadlee, intangibles and conditions faced. But I don't pretend there's a massive gulf between any of them. I do believe that the top 2 do have a small but perceptible advantage over Hadlee. But I rate Hadlee higher than most here.
Also to there being a massive gap after Sobers, I think Marshall is close, Pidge and Paddles not that far behind him, Tendulkar on par as batsmen if not the slightest hair ahead. Think Richards is on par with him as batsman, Hobbs being in that same tier.
But yeah, there are two that stands apart, and if you wish to disagree with that, that's your right as well.
I have and have always said that there have been 4 phenomenons in the history of the game. The Don, Sobers, the WI pace battery and McWarne. Those stand part, again you're free to disagree.
Re Greenidge and Viv, Gavaskar is better than Greenidge. Let's be clear about that, and not sure why it was brought up.
Viv was better than Sunny, and don't think it was particularly close. That I'm not backing down on. Viv averaged a tad over 50 because he had a precipitous decline, but his domination of the pacers he played against, didn't get to play minnows or the fodder that Sunny massacred in '71 or during WSC, in addition to be being the greatest player ever vs pace and his WSC record, just pushes him ahead for me. So with regards to a gap, over Sunny, a bit of one, not massive, but definitely there, but he's very much in phase with the guys in the best after Bradman category, no gaps there.
And I have Sunny as a top 10 batsman of all time (probably the same position as you and everyone else in the forum not named Luffy), same way I have Imran as a top 8 bowler (exact same position as the forum), the pretence here is that I think both are crap, that's never been further from the truth.
With regards to not having to face his attack? Well outside of Border, Sunil or Javed none of the greats did either. Ponting never faced McWarne, Warne didn't have to face the greatest batting line up of all time either, Murali got to play on turners every home test, not everyone had equal footing.
If you want to go to over rated of late though, I can point to quite a bit of players who have been of late, a couple still playing (not Jasprit). But you focus on my guys, and again, not even on positioning, but your perception of my perception of the distances between the positioning. And it's not altogether accurate. I have Hadlee and McGrath rated higher than Viv, and rate Smith is a touch above Lara (though on a separate and a tad unfair note, tonight will impact how I view the former, not in relation to BCL, but in general). The gap to Bradman doesn't exist only for Sobers, he's not even at the top of that list.
