Is Viv Richards an Overrated Test Batsman?

[GotSpin]

No generally...not directed at you. This is definitely one of the most hostile forums towards tendulkar i have seen.....by a long shot.

Every other post is a dig at the man. You all keep talking about Sachin fan boys ruining the forum, but yet most of the posts (based on what i have seen in the last few days) about Sachin is because it was provoked.

You guys know very well that, all you need to do is take a petty pot shot at Tendulkar and the stat army will come out of their holes, and you use it. Try denying that.

I have not seen new threads started where it says Sachin Tendulkar is better than this batsman and that batsman. Yet when you would like to speak about any other great batsman, you always drag the man in to the picture....it says something about him, if he remains somekind of benchmark.

If you want the Sachin fan boys to stop talking about his stats, you guys should try not dissing him or belittling him. Why provoke if you don't like the reaction?

A general ban on "Who is better" type of threads would be a good idea for this forum...

You're relatively new to this forum so I'll give you a pass, but there was a time when Cricket Chat was overrun with Sachin v threads. Almost every thread contained references to Sachin by his fans. So yes, these has been a backlash against this.

 

[Burgey]

No generally...not directed at you. This is definitely one of the most hostile forums towards tendulkar i have seen.....by a long shot.

Every other post is a dig at the man. You all keep talking about Sachin fan boys ruining the forum, but yet most of the posts (based on what i have seen in the last few days) about Sachin is because it was provoked.

You guys know very well that, all you need to do is take a petty pot shot at Tendulkar and the stat army will come out of their holes, and you use it. Try denying that.

I have not seen new threads started where it says Sachin Tendulkar is better than this batsman and that batsman. Yet when you would like to speak about any other great batsman, you always drag the man in to the picture....it says something about him, if he remains somekind of benchmark.

If you want the Sachin fan boys to stop talking about his stats, you guys should try not dissing him or belittling him. Why provoke if you don't like the reaction?

A general ban on "Who is better" type of threads would be a good idea for this forum...

But you can't ban those threads, really, can you?

Anyway, fwiw, if it's ok to have a thread that says Viv Richards is an over rated test batsman, then it's equally ok to question other players' records, including Tendulkar's.

AFAIC Tendlkar is stand out one of the best batsmen to have played cricket. So is Richards, so is Lara, so is Greg Chappell. I'd have each of them ahead of Ponting, Waugh, Dravid, Miandad, Kallis, Boycott and Gavaskar.

And in saying that I'm not slagging those players one bit. They're great players too. But in my opinion (and that's all it is) the Tendulkars, Laras, Vivs and GCs have a little bit more. It's hard to explain, its almost intangible (especially in the case of Ponting who gets murdered on here). But it's how I see it.

 

[vcs]

Nah, step too far.

Just take criticism of Sachin in your stride. Feel free to reply to it, but don't get angry and emotionally invested. Not worth it.

People have the right to have a go at Sachin's record if they like. If they are making **** arguments, either ignore it, or shut them down.

Or walk around with a beatific smile on your face because your team have just won a Test match by 1 wicket and who really gives a **** how people rate Tendulkar vs. Richards or whoever.

 

[GotSpin]

But you can't ban those threads, really, can you?

Anyway, fwiw, if it's ok to have a thread that says Viv Richards is an over rated test batsman, then it's equally ok to question other players' records, including Tendulkar's.

AFAIC Tendlkar is stand out one of the best batsmen to have played cricket. So is Richards, so is Lara, so is Greg Chappell. I'd have each of them ahead of Ponting, Waugh, Dravid, Miandad, Kallis, Boycott and Gavaskar.

And in saying that I'm not slagging those players one bit. They're great players too. But in my opinion (and that's all it is) the Tendulkars, Laras, Vivs and GCs have a little bit more. It's hard to explain, its almost intangible. But it's how I see it.

Brutal that you just missed Border - I thought better uncle burgey :

 

[Anil]

Have to say, I find posts like this very irritating, not because I make my decisions based on only stats or only on what I've seen, but because they drip with condescension and elitism and often it can be a method of shutting down discussion.

It's not inconceivable that people might rate Viv lower or higher based on something other than stats. Even if people use stats to form their opinions, why does it matter? It's just another way of coming to a conclusion about something that is definitely not clear-cut.

it's my opinion...and it is a strong opinion...you are welcome to disagree...absolutely no intention of stopping discussion or provoking anyone...won't say more, don't want to drawn into an argument...see no point...in any case i agree with most of the opinions you usually express so this tiny discord is not that big a deal....

 

[kingjulian]

But you can't ban those threads, really, can you?

Anyway, fwiw, if it's ok to have a thread that says Viv Richards is an over rated test batsman, then it's equally ok to question other players' records, including Tendulkar's.
.

Agreed with almost every word of your prev post, but especially the above bit. This thread was idiotic in the first place. Calling an all time great with many fans world over, an over-rated batsman is proper mischief making.

There was a question in the opening post which seemed to ask who would you prefer - Lara or Viv, and i responded saying i would have Lara because he averaged more in a tougher decade to bat. There is nothing to say how either bats would have gone in the other's time, hence i blindly went by the numbers.

In terms of style of play. I would still prefer Lara over Viv, because i like left handers more and that is very very subjective.

 

[Burgey]

Brutal that you just missed Border - I thought better uncle burgey :

I know, I know.

I actually typed his name in one of those groups, and couldn't decide which one to put him in. I'm terribly biased towards Border, he WAS cricket in this country during the worst era we ever had. What a player he was. I would have him in the top echelon of players too, but I confess to a wicked bias there.

 

[GotSpin]

Let the bias come out I say. Not enough

 

[sachin200]

You are free to have your opinion whatever that may be You really don't have to feel sorry or believe that Viv is great. As one poster said correctly Viv is over-rated by people who were not fortunate to see him bat live. My guess is, you never saw him bat, outside of youtube videos. Since you used Viv's stats (filtered by opposition) to support the fact that he is over-rated, my point was to show you that Sachin (someone whom you most definitely don't consider over-rated) stats, filtered by the opposing bowler in my case, can be used to support similar claims.

Ultimately it depends on what creates the strongest impression in your mind. Like you, it would most likely be Sachin's batting for most Indians. So for you and most Indians it is the Holy Grail. Since I grew up watching cricket during the golden era of fast bowling (late 70s to early 90s), hostile pace bowling created the strongest impression in my mind.

Lillee-Thommo flattening everyone including English and Windies batting line-ups in the mid-70s was some sight. It was pitiful to see a terrified Bishen Singh Bedi (with a strong batting line-up of Gavaskar, Gaekwad, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Vishwanath etc.) declare his side at some 90+ runs for 5 wickets down in Jamaica for the sheer fear of facing the West Indian pacemen (who were bowling bouncers and occasional beamers) in their 1976 Test series. Similarly, it was appalling to see a super-tough Aussie batting line-up (Boon, Marsh, Dean Jones, Border, Steve Waugh, Healy etc.) being pulverized into submission on an MCG pitch with uneven bounce by Patterson, Ambrose and Marshall in their 88-89 series. The Australian side was a heap of broken bodies at the end of the MCG match. They managed to score 114 and it took every ounce of their courage and skill.

Test cricket, back then, was a completely different sport, a completely different challenge, compared to what it is now. Getting back from the ground in one piece was as big, if not bigger, a priority as keeping your wicket.

For these reasons, I can't appreciate Viv enough for opening the batting against Lillee+Thommo in the latter half of the 75-76 series and then carting them all over the ground, and this despite Viv being a regular middle-order batsman (he had to open partly because opener Greenidge's confidence was annhilated by the ferocity of the pacemen). It requires an astonishing degree of courage and skill to do that. No wonder several cricketers including Imran, Lillee, Botham rate Viv as the greatest. Again, it is their subjective opinion .

Sir Ian Botham: Tendulkar was the greatest player I played against

 

[aussie]

Completely agree. Again, it is subjective I guess. I do remember Sachin taking complete control of a Test match against World's best spinners on a turning wicket (like his fourth innings unbeaten 150+ against Shane Warne in India), but don't recall him doing that often in a Test match against great fast bowlers, even in the 90s.

This doesn't mean Sachin was a bad player of pace! He was a very good player of pace. It probably was that, dominating them wasn't his approach to Test match cricket like Viv or Gilchrist. He just avoided the risk. But boy, he (and virtually all Indian batsmen) literally put the fear of God in the world's best spinners even on a turning track. I remember Ravi Shastri trampling all over Shane Warne on a spin-friendly SCG in Warne's debut Test match. Similarly, the spanking that Warne got from Sidhu in the 1998 Ind-Aus Test series was unbelievable.

Lara's approach was different. During his periods of madness, the bowler or the situation just did not matter. Once, staunchly defending Stuart MacGill (who just got a pasting in a Test match from Lara), his captain Steve Waugh told the Press, something to the likes of "When Brian Lara is on song in a Test match, even Glenn McGrath gets hit." I generally found that to be true.

I remember Lara's battle with Donald in a Cape Town Test in 1998-99 series. Donald peppered Lara with short balls directed at the body (with liberal doses of verbal volleys in between), Lara retaliated, answering fire with fire. Donald's 2 overs went for 30 runs with a spate of boundaries coming off Lara's bat, and he was taken off the attack. Donald returned later to have his revenge by grabbing Lara's wicket. Spectatorship-wise, it was Test cricket at it's finest with a great batsman and a great fast bowler in a one-on-one battle. But team-situation-wise, Lara's quickfire 60+ only hastened his team's inevitable defeat. A lot of times, his hurry to dominate (especially before 2003) cost him his wicket. In that sense Tendulkar has a wiser head on his shoulders. He rarely allows the circumstances to affect his role for his team. A lot like Gavaskar, he usually doesn't take unnecessary risks.

Viv's scoring, to me, was even scarier than Lara's. Even though Viv scored at a very fast rate in Test cricket like Lara, it rarely seemed as if he was in out-of-control, over-drive mode. This controlled aggression was what made him really scary. With Lara, I always felt there was a chance of him getting out. Although from 2003 till the end of his career, Lara kept his moody tantrums aside and put a real price on his wicket.

The following probably illustrates the difference in approach of Lara and Tendulkar. In his best series against McGrath-Warne, Sachin scored 302 runs in 509 balls with the following run distribution:
26 runs off 103 deliveries against McGrath (with 2 boundaries).
89 runs off 143 deliveries against Warne (with 14 boundaries).
187 runs off 263 deliveries against the rest.

Lara, in his best series, against McGrath-Warne has a different run distribution.
125 runs in 230 deliveries against McGrath (with 19 boundaries)
117 runs in 176 deliveries against Warne (with 14 boundaries).
304 runs off 434 deliveries against the rest.

Lara seems to have been far less cautious against McGrath. Interestingly Imran in his article on Richards mentions a similar difference between the attitudes of Richards and Gavaskar.

Tendulkar is solid and balanced at the crease. IMO, he has the most water-tight technique of any batsman. Rarely gives any chances to the bowler. Only once I do remember him losing his cool and going after a bowler. I think it was against McGrath in the Sydney Test in 1999. Tendulkar was mad about someone or something, probably the umpiring or McGrath's behavior in the series. He just went after McGrath, scoring a succession of boundaries, until McGrath got him with a peach of a delivery. In general, Lara's batting appears riskier. He takes more chances.

If I were a captain, I would probably prefer Tendulkar in my team to Lara. If I were a spectator, Lara by a mile!

What I do admire about Lara and Viv is that although they rarely compromised on their style of play throughout their careers, their overall figures are not much inferior to Tendulkar's.

In ODIs though, most stroke-players have been match-winners at some point. There must be several instances of a batsman taking control of a game and changing it altogether.

You are free to have your opinion whatever that may be You really don't have to feel sorry or believe that Viv is great. As one poster said correctly Viv is over-rated by people who were not fortunate to see him bat live. My guess is, you never saw him bat, outside of youtube videos. Since you used Viv's stats (filtered by opposition) to support the fact that he is over-rated, my point was to show you that Sachin (someone whom you most definitely don't consider over-rated) stats, filtered by the opposing bowler in my case, can be used to support similar claims.

Ultimately it depends on what creates the strongest impression in your mind. Like you, it would most likely be Sachin's batting for most Indians. So for you and most Indians it is the Holy Grail. Since I grew up watching cricket during the golden era of fast bowling (late 70s to early 90s), hostile pace bowling created the strongest impression in my mind.

Lillee-Thommo flattening everyone including English and Windies batting line-ups in the mid-70s was some sight. It was pitiful to see a terrified Bishen Singh Bedi (with a strong batting line-up of Gavaskar, Gaekwad, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Vishwanath etc.) declare his side at some 90+ runs for 5 wickets down in Jamaica for the sheer fear of facing the West Indian pacemen (who were bowling bouncers and occasional beamers) in their 1976 Test series. Similarly, it was appalling to see a super-tough Aussie batting line-up (Boon, Marsh, Dean Jones, Border, Steve Waugh, Healy etc.) being pulverized into submission on an MCG pitch with uneven bounce by Patterson, Ambrose and Marshall in their 88-89 series. The Australian side was a heap of broken bodies at the end of the MCG match. They managed to score 114 and it took every ounce of their courage and skill.

Test cricket, back then, was a completely different sport, a completely different challenge, compared to what it is now. Getting back from the ground in one piece was as big, if not bigger, a priority as keeping your wicket.

For these reasons, I can't appreciate Viv enough for opening the batting against Lillee+Thommo in the latter half of the 75-76 series and then carting them all over the ground, and this despite Viv being a regular middle-order batsman (he had to open partly because opener Greenidge's confidence was annhilated by the ferocity of the pacemen). It requires an astonishing degree of courage and skill to do that. No wonder several cricketers including Imran, Lillee, Botham rate Viv as the greatest. Again, it is their subjective opinion .

Two absolutely top class posts sir. You are 200% right here, this shouldn't be subjective. This should have unanimous agreement.

 

[Sanz]

Sir Ian Botham: Tendulkar was the greatest player I played against

Questions :-
[Comment From Chris Chris : ]
Apart from your mate viv who was the greatest player you played with and against

Sir Ian Botham:
Tendulkar was the greatest player I played against

I would really be Surprised If Botham ever said that Tendulkar was the greatest he played against. Botham, from what I remember, not only played against Viv but also with him @ Somerset.

 

[Cevno]

On a side note y was ur thread closed? I always believe whats good for the goose should be good for the gander. Now the Sachin fans see how it feels to have there hero disparaged. I for one was never about getting into ne debates as to Viv vs SRT. Personally if I had to pick an all time Xii facing an all time attack Viv would be my second or third choise (only after Bradman and maybe G Chappell ) of the batsmen Ive seen.

To be fair that thread being closed helped him as his argument had been found out,so much so that he started making more Untruthful statements about Donald's opinion and Curtly Ambrose's ability,spinners being easy to bash among other things which were also found out.

After which he made a silly post.

 

[honestbharani]

But you can't ban those threads, really, can you?

Anyway, fwiw, if it's ok to have a thread that says Viv Richards is an over rated test batsman, then it's equally ok to question other players' records, including Tendulkar's.

AFAIC Tendlkar is stand out one of the best batsmen to have played cricket. So is Richards, so is Lara, so is Greg Chappell. I'd have each of them ahead of Ponting, Waugh, Dravid, Miandad, Kallis, Boycott and Gavaskar.

And in saying that I'm not slagging those players one bit. They're great players too. But in my opinion (and that's all it is) the Tendulkars, Laras, Vivs and GCs have a little bit more. It's hard to explain, its almost intangible (especially in the case of Ponting who gets murdered on here). But it's how I see it.

Agreed.. And honestly, even between those 4 (Viv, Greg, Lara and Sachin) I am sure it is almost as close as in what mood you are on the particular day.. There is just as much evidence that one of them is better than the other 3 for each of them... And we have seen it all here in CW.. Does it really matter if one is marginally better than the other.. For me, all 4 are just as likely to do well as the other against any bowling attack in the world and that's that...

 

[honestbharani]

Let the bias come out I say. Not enough

lol.. AB is awesome.. IN fact, even in all time world XI, if we were picking players based on styles suited for each position, he would WALK in at #5 AFAIC..

 

[honestbharani]

To be fair that thread being closed helped him as his argument had been found out,so much so that he started making more Untruthful statements about Donald's opinion and Curtly Ambrose's ability,spinners being easy to bash among other things which were also found out.

After which he made a silly post.

I honestly don't think anything was found out... But that thread was getting hostile from both sides and had a fair few "stretching the facts" posts from both sides and was rightfully closed for that reason...

 

[Burgey]

lol.. AB is awesome.. IN fact, even in all time world XI, if we were picking players based on styles suited for each position, he would WALK in at #5 AFAIC..

I love you man..

 

[robelinda]

Oh AB is just a bloody legend. Just ridiculously talented ( really, he was), and the most hardened batsman of all time IMO. All time champion.

 

[archie mac]

I wonder how STR would have went without a helmet? I don't remember him being hit in the head too often. As opposed to JL who may well have been killed if he played in the 70s

 

[smash84]

Slifer, you don't have to justify. Certain posts (or posters) just aren't worth replying to . Their only intention is to lead to a flame-war and get the thread closed. Just surprised though at the amount of slack mods are giving those insecure Sachin fans :O, considering robelinda was warned for something trivial.

Coming back to your post, you are correct on all notes. You just need to look at the Aus-WI series scorecards to see the number of retired hurts (in fall-of-wickets section of the scorecards). Kallicharan himself was one of the victims (had his nose broken by a Lillee bouncer, in the Perth match I think). Lloyd got hit in the face too, as did several other players including Holding. Greenidge admitted later that Thommo's spells were frighteningly quick, and it really did affect his confidence. Windies then got the message that if you have an array of fast bowlers, use them to intimidate and subjugate the opposition.

Hapless Bishen Singh Bedi's men were the first targets of the Windies pacemen. They continously hammered all teams, with the probable exception of Pakistan, at home and away, and this was the reason the laws were changed (every other Board would have readily voted for the change in bouncer law). An astonishing number of batsmen were hit during mid 70s and 80s. Bowlers like Sylvester Clarke, Roberts and Marshall quite openly targeted the batsman's body. They mastered the art of bowling bouncers at a fearsome pace at an uncomfortable height (between chest and chin) forcing batsmen to play at it.

Fantastic post

 

[bagapath]

I wonder how STR would have went without a helmet?

he would have hooked a lot more. helmets have taken away that shot from the art of batting as a protective as well as a run scoring stroke against fast bowlers on bouncy tracks. he would have done well, averaged around 48, I guess (against richards' 50). Had Richards, OTOH, played in the current batter friendly era, he would also have averaged about 48 (against sachin's 56) simply because he would be bored of less challenging bowlers and thrown his wicket away more easily more often. richards, overrated? i was trying to avoid this thread all these days. can't take it anymore!!!