Is Viv Richards an Overrated Test Batsman?

[Jono]

Nah you're scum for turning that off.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Nah you're scum for turning that off.

I can understand why you, as an Aussie would be pissed off, but lay off the insults, please.

 

[Prince EWS]

I can understand why you, as an Aussie would be pissed off, but lay off the insults, please.

Jono's particularly annoyed though because the result of the game cost his favourite player what would've been a certain MOTM award.

 

[Jono]

x

 

[kingjulian]

Even in the 90s I felt similarly, although less so. When Lara had a poor WIndies he still kept that presence and you were praying he'd get out ASAP before he took the game away from you.

True in a way...

Sachin was good value for a very good looking and aggressive century, but Lara on the other hand could single handedly bat opposition out of a game. I don't know if that was because Sachin did not get the support in the 90s when he was at his prime, or if it was because Sachin was more dependent on support, than a Lara or Viv Richards.

But in terms of stroke play, Sachin was actually more attacking than Lara. I have seen him destroy the very best of bowlers (fast or spin) and take them out of a bowling attack in a space of couple of overs in Test and ODI cricket. His stroke making ability in the 90s was in my opinion peerless.

In the 2000's he has become more of a grafter who scores at 50 to 60% strike rate on average...but i wouldn't describe him as someone who has a technically sound defense and grafts for runs. We know he plays all the strokes. The move to becoming a grafter in Test Cricket could well be a tactical move, because he still scores at a rapid rate in ODI cricket. After all, he plays in a team that has Sehwag, Gambhir and Dhoni...three players who like to score at a good rate. So the need of the hour for Indian cricket team is someone who is more consistent and is the core around whom others can build an innings. This is also evident in the number of big partnerships he has had recently.

 

[Sanz]

But in terms of stroke play, Sachin was actually more attacking than Lara. I have seen him destroy the very best of bowlers (fast or spin) and take them out of a bowling attack in a space of couple of overs in Test and ODI cricket. His stroke making ability in the 90s was in my opinion peerless.

All those matches do not count. Please show a match where Tendy Destroyed the best of the attacks excluding all the matches where he destroyed the bowlers.

Matches against Australia, Bangladesh, West Indies, Pakistan, South Africa, England, NZ, Zimbabwe, SriLanka or any other ICC affiliated Cricket nation do not count.

Batting Right Handed does not count.

Batting Positions 1-11 don't count.

Innings 1-4 don't count.

Runs scored between 00-24 Hour don't count,

Runs scored on any 7 days of the week don't count.

Runs After 15 November 1989 don't count.

.....Wait I change me mind on last one, Runs after 24th April 1973 Don't count.

 

[Altaican]

TBH, that's always been my perception of Tendulkar. Someone with an incredible technique and sound defence that it's often impossible to stop him accumulating runs. But it's not often I thought he took control of an innings the way a Sehwag or Viv would - and I am not speaking entirely about the speed of scoring.

Completely agree. Again, it is subjective I guess. I do remember Sachin taking complete control of a Test match against World's best spinners on a turning wicket (like his fourth innings unbeaten 150+ against Shane Warne in India), but don't recall him doing that often in a Test match against great fast bowlers, even in the 90s.

This doesn't mean Sachin was a bad player of pace! He was a very good player of pace. It probably was that, dominating them wasn't his approach to Test match cricket like Viv or Gilchrist. He just avoided the risk. But boy, he (and virtually all Indian batsmen) literally put the fear of God in the world's best spinners even on a turning track. I remember Ravi Shastri trampling all over Shane Warne on a spin-friendly SCG in Warne's debut Test match. Similarly, the spanking that Warne got from Sidhu in the 1998 Ind-Aus Test series was unbelievable.

Lara's approach was different. During his periods of madness, the bowler or the situation just did not matter. Once, staunchly defending Stuart MacGill (who just got a pasting in a Test match from Lara), his captain Steve Waugh told the Press, something to the likes of "When Brian Lara is on song in a Test match, even Glenn McGrath gets hit." I generally found that to be true.

I remember Lara's battle with Donald in a Cape Town Test in 1998-99 series. Donald peppered Lara with short balls directed at the body (with liberal doses of verbal volleys in between), Lara retaliated, answering fire with fire. Donald's 2 overs went for 30 runs with a spate of boundaries coming off Lara's bat, and he was taken off the attack. Donald returned later to have his revenge by grabbing Lara's wicket. Spectatorship-wise, it was Test cricket at it's finest with a great batsman and a great fast bowler in a one-on-one battle. But team-situation-wise, Lara's quickfire 60+ only hastened his team's inevitable defeat. A lot of times, his hurry to dominate (especially before 2003) cost him his wicket. In that sense Tendulkar has a wiser head on his shoulders. He rarely allows the circumstances to affect his role for his team. A lot like Gavaskar, he usually doesn't take unnecessary risks.

Viv's scoring, to me, was even scarier than Lara's. Even though Viv scored at a very fast rate in Test cricket like Lara, it rarely seemed as if he was in out-of-control, over-drive mode. This controlled aggression was what made him really scary. With Lara, I always felt there was a chance of him getting out. Although from 2003 till the end of his career, Lara kept his moody tantrums aside and put a real price on his wicket.

The following probably illustrates the difference in approach of Lara and Tendulkar. In his best series against McGrath-Warne, Sachin scored 302 runs in 509 balls with the following run distribution:
26 runs off 103 deliveries against McGrath (with 2 boundaries).
89 runs off 143 deliveries against Warne (with 14 boundaries).
187 runs off 263 deliveries against the rest.

Lara, in his best series, against McGrath-Warne has a different run distribution.
125 runs in 230 deliveries against McGrath (with 19 boundaries)
117 runs in 176 deliveries against Warne (with 14 boundaries).
304 runs off 434 deliveries against the rest.

Lara seems to have been far less cautious against McGrath. Interestingly Imran in his article on Richards mentions a similar difference between the attitudes of Richards and Gavaskar.

Tendulkar is solid and balanced at the crease. IMO, he has the most water-tight technique of any batsman. Rarely gives any chances to the bowler. Only once I do remember him losing his cool and going after a bowler. I think it was against McGrath in the Sydney Test in 1999. Tendulkar was mad about someone or something, probably the umpiring or McGrath's behavior in the series. He just went after McGrath, scoring a succession of boundaries, until McGrath got him with a peach of a delivery. In general, Lara's batting appears riskier. He takes more chances.

If I were a captain, I would probably prefer Tendulkar in my team to Lara. If I were a spectator, Lara by a mile!

What I do admire about Lara and Viv is that although they rarely compromised on their style of play throughout their careers, their overall figures are not much inferior to Tendulkar's.

In ODIs though, most stroke-players have been match-winners at some point. There must be several instances of a batsman taking control of a game and changing it altogether.

 

[Sanz]

What I do admire about Lara and Viv is that although they rarely compromised on their style of play throughout their careers, their overall figures are not much inferior to Tendulkar's.

They are, Purely in Statistical terms.

 

[Sanz]

If I were a captain, I would probably prefer Tendulkar in my team to Lara. If I were a spectator, Lara by a mile!

If I were a captain, I would drop myself and someone else and have all 3 in my team.

 

[Slifer]

Just goes to show that starting a conversation about any great player with terms like "overrated" is silly. It's certainly valid to examine their records and ask questions, but, well, silly to dismiss the consensus (or near consensus) opinion of people who watched the player in question play and/or played against them. Viv is not overrated. Sachin is not overrated. They are both great players, in the very top drawer of all time. Why it matters to anyone which is marginally ahead of the other, if indeed there is a difference, is bewildering - just enjoy the fact that they've contributed what they have to the game. For instance, if the majority view is that Sachin has been over his career better than Ponting, does that mean that I enjoy my memories of watching Ponting any less, or should consider Ponting any less awesome? No IMO. We're better off not turning what we love into a pissing contest with each other.


btw, that wasn't an invitation to debate the merits of Tendulkar vs Ponting here, it was simply an example. That topic has its own thread.

I like this post. I myself try these days try to avoid getting into these sort of A vs B debates cause it usually deteriorates into bashing a great player (at the expense of another) and trampling on somebody's hero. For many Viv is a hero in the WI and for whoever it is to start a thread asking if he wa overrated is simply a slap in the face. I assume its similar for the Tendy fans as well as the Warne et al fans. Thats y as much as possible thse days I try to avoid these A vs B debates

 

[Slifer]

As a person who started the bull s*** thread, I never personally thought Viv as an overrated batsman, if I sounded like that, then I am apologizing and btw I believe that Viv is greatest ODI batsman Ever and in the Top 5 TEST batsman ever. He should be rated as the best player of the fast bowling in the history. I just wanted to know the opinion of you guys thats why I started the thread. If I sounded as a person who desperately wanted to prove sachin is better than than Viv then you are wrong. In my opinion Viv is better in playing fast bowling anyway because of his unbelievable reflexes.

Forgiven here too. Perhaps me/we overreacted a bit. Maybe next time use: "Ranking Viv among the ATG batsmen" (insert stats below).

 

[Slifer]

They are, Purely in Statistical terms.

They r what inferior?? After a similar amount of innings (which is what i assume he meant) stats wise their close (runs, average etc). Tendy has far more runs and centuries now but thats as much a product of more matches than ne thing else.

 

[kingjulian]

Completely agree. Again, it is subjective I guess. I do remember Sachin taking complete control of a Test match against World's best spinners on a turning wicket (like his fourth innings unbeaten 150+ against Shane Warne in India), but don't recall him doing that often in a Test match against great fast bowlers, even in the 90s.

This doesn't mean Sachin was a bad player of pace! He was a very good player of pace. It probably was that, dominating them wasn't his approach to Test match cricket like Viv or Gilchrist. He just avoided the risk. But boy, he (and virtually all Indian batsmen) literally put the fear of God in the world's best spinners even on a turning track. I remember Ravi Shastri trampling all over Shane Warne on a spin-friendly SCG in Warne's debut Test match. Similarly, the spanking that Warne got from Sidhu in the 1998 Ind-Aus Test series was unbelievable.

Lara's approach was different. During his periods of madness, the bowler or the situation just did not matter. Once, staunchly defending Stuart MacGill (who just got a pasting in a Test match from Lara), his captain Steve Waugh told the Press, something to the likes of "When Brian Lara is on song in a Test match, even Glenn McGrath gets hit." I generally found that to be true.

I remember Lara's battle with Donald in a Cape Town Test in 1998-99 series. Donald peppered Lara with short balls directed at the body (with liberal doses of verbal volleys in between), Lara retaliated, answering fire with fire. Donald's 2 overs went for 30 runs with a spate of boundaries coming off Lara's bat, and he was taken off the attack. Donald returned later to have his revenge by grabbing Lara's wicket. Spectatorship-wise, it was Test cricket at it's finest with a great batsman and a great fast bowler in a one-on-one battle. But team-situation-wise, Lara's quickfire 60+ only hastened his team's inevitable defeat. A lot of times, his hurry to dominate (especially before 2003) cost him his wicket. In that sense Tendulkar has a wiser head on his shoulders. He rarely allows the circumstances to affect his role for his team. A lot like Gavaskar, he usually doesn't take unnecessary risks.

Viv's scoring, to me, was even scarier than Lara's. Even though Viv scored at a very fast rate in Test cricket like Lara, it rarely seemed as if he was in out-of-control, over-drive mode. This controlled aggression was what made him really scary. With Lara, I always felt there was a chance of him getting out. Although from 2003 till the end of his career, Lara kept his moody tantrums aside and put a real price on his wicket.

The following probably illustrates the difference in approach of Lara and Tendulkar. In his best series against McGrath-Warne, Sachin scored 302 runs in 509 balls with the following run distribution:
26 runs off 103 deliveries against McGrath (with 2 boundaries).
89 runs off 143 deliveries against Warne (with 14 boundaries).
187 runs off 263 deliveries against the rest.

Lara, in his best series, against McGrath-Warne has a different run distribution.
125 runs in 230 deliveries against McGrath (with 19 boundaries)
117 runs in 176 deliveries against Warne (with 14 boundaries).
304 runs off 434 deliveries against the rest.

Lara seems to have been far less cautious against McGrath. Interestingly Imran in his article on Richards mentions a similar difference between the attitudes of Richards and Gavaskar.

Tendulkar is solid and balanced at the crease. IMO, he has the most water-tight technique of any batsman. Rarely gives any chances to the bowler. Only once I do remember him losing his cool and going after a bowler. I think it was against McGrath in the Sydney Test in 1999. Tendulkar was mad about someone or something, probably the umpiring or McGrath's behavior in the series. He just went after McGrath, scoring a succession of boundaries, until McGrath got him with a peach of a delivery. In general, Lara's batting appears riskier. He takes more chances.

If I were a captain, I would probably prefer Tendulkar in my team to Lara. If I were a spectator, Lara by a mile!

What I do admire about Lara and Viv is that although they rarely compromised on their style of play throughout their careers, their overall figures are not much inferior to Tendulkar's.

In ODIs though, most stroke-players have been match-winners at some point. There must be several instances of a batsman taking control of a game and changing it altogether.

Not much to disagree there,because a lot of what you say is subjective. If you like Brian Lara's batting more...hey, who am i to disagree. In fact, i like to watch him play more too, mostly because he is a left hander, and there was something artistic about the way he played.

But, after that idiotic statistic thread about Tendulkar against fast bowling, it is hard to take anything you say seriously. You got pwned in that thread too....lolzers.

Even here, once again you are taking one series to make a point. After everyone in the forum explained to you on the problems of using statistics selectively.

 

[kingjulian]

Since we are on the topic..

in terms of viewing pleasure it's

Lara > Viv > Sachin. But i will sacrifice many things to watch any of them bat...... to be honest.

 

[Burgey]

Not much to disagree there,because a lot of what you say is subjective. If you like Brian Lara's batting more...hey, who am i to disagree. In fact, i like to watch him play more too, mostly because he is a left hander, and there was something artistic about the way he played.

But, after that idiotic statistic thread about Tendulkar against fast bowling, it is hard to take anything you say seriously. You got pwned in that thread too....lolzers.

Even here, once again you are taking one series to make a point. After everyone in the forum explained to you on the problems of using statistics selectively.

While everyone else goes ahead and does the same thing to prove their own points...

 

[Altaican]

As a person who started the bull s*** thread, I never personally thought Viv as an overrated batsman, if I sounded like that, then I am apologizing and btw I believe that Viv is greatest ODI batsman Ever and in the Top 5 TEST batsman ever. He should be rated as the best player of the fast bowling in the history. I just wanted to know the opinion of you guys thats why I started the thread. If I sounded as a person who desperately wanted to prove sachin is better than than Viv then you are wrong. In my opinion Viv is better in playing fast bowling anyway because of his unbelievable reflexes.

You are free to have your opinion whatever that may be You really don't have to feel sorry or believe that Viv is great. As one poster said correctly Viv is over-rated by people who were not fortunate to see him bat live. My guess is, you never saw him bat, outside of youtube videos. Since you used Viv's stats (filtered by opposition) to support the fact that he is over-rated, my point was to show you that Sachin (someone whom you most definitely don't consider over-rated) stats, filtered by the opposing bowler in my case, can be used to support similar claims.

Ultimately it depends on what creates the strongest impression in your mind. Like you, it would most likely be Sachin's batting for most Indians. So for you and most Indians it is the Holy Grail. Since I grew up watching cricket during the golden era of fast bowling (late 70s to early 90s), hostile pace bowling created the strongest impression in my mind.

Lillee-Thommo flattening everyone including English and Windies batting line-ups in the mid-70s was some sight. It was pitiful to see a terrified Bishen Singh Bedi (with a strong batting line-up of Gavaskar, Gaekwad, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Vishwanath etc.) declare his side at some 90+ runs for 5 wickets down in Jamaica for the sheer fear of facing the West Indian pacemen (who were bowling bouncers and occasional beamers) in their 1976 Test series. Similarly, it was appalling to see a super-tough Aussie batting line-up (Boon, Marsh, Dean Jones, Border, Steve Waugh, Healy etc.) being pulverized into submission on an MCG pitch with uneven bounce by Patterson, Ambrose and Marshall in their 88-89 series. The Australian side was a heap of broken bodies at the end of the MCG match. They managed to score 114 and it took every ounce of their courage and skill.

Test cricket, back then, was a completely different sport, a completely different challenge, compared to what it is now. Getting back from the ground in one piece was as big, if not bigger, a priority as keeping your wicket.

For these reasons, I can't appreciate Viv enough for opening the batting against Lillee+Thommo in the latter half of the 75-76 series and then carting them all over the ground, and this despite Viv being a regular middle-order batsman (he had to open partly because opener Greenidge's confidence was annhilated by the ferocity of the pacemen). It requires an astonishing degree of courage and skill to do that. No wonder several cricketers including Imran, Lillee, Botham rate Viv as the greatest. Again, it is their subjective opinion .

 

[robelinda]

You are free to have your opinion whatever that may be You really don't have to feel sorry or believe that Viv is great. As one poster said correctly Viv is over-rated by people who were not fortunate to see him bat live. My guess is, you never saw him bat, outside of youtube videos. Since you used Viv's stats (filtered by opposition) to support the fact that he is over-rated, my point was to show you that Sachin (someone whom you most definitely don't consider over-rated) stats, filtered by the opposing bowler in my case, can be used to support similar claims.

Ultimately it depends on what creates the strongest impression in your mind. Like you, it would most likely be Sachin's batting for most Indians. So for you and most Indians it is the Holy Grail. Since I grew up watching cricket during the golden era of fast bowling (late 70s to early 90s), hostile pace bowling created the strongest impression in my mind.

Lillee-Thommo flattening everyone including English and Windies batting line-ups in the mid-70s was some sight. It was pitiful to see a terrified Bishen Singh Bedi (with a strong batting line-up of Gavaskar, Gaekwad, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Vishwanath etc.) declare his side at some 90+ runs for 5 wickets down in Jamaica for the sheer fear of facing the West Indian pacemen (who were bowling bouncers and occasional beamers) in their 1976 Test series. Similarly, it was appalling to see a super-tough Aussie batting line-up (Boon, Marsh, Dean Jones, Border, Steve Waugh, Healy etc.) being pulverized into submission on an MCG pitch with uneven bounce by Patterson, Ambrose and Marshall in their 88-89 series. The Australian side was a heap of broken bodies at the end of the MCG match. They managed to score 114 and it took every ounce of their courage and skill.

Test cricket, back then, was a completely different sport, a completely different challenge, compared to what it is now. Getting back from the ground in one piece was as big, if not bigger, a priority as keeping your wicket.

For these reasons, I can't appreciate Viv enough for opening the batting against Lillee+Thommo in the latter half of the 75-76 series and then carting them all over the ground, and this despite Viv being a regular middle-order batsman (he had to open partly because opener Greenidge's confidence was annhilated by the ferocity of the pacemen). It requires an astonishing degree of courage and skill to do that. No wonder several cricketers including Imran, Lillee, Botham rate Viv as the greatest. Again, it is their subjective opinion .

Agree. Viv monstered the very best fast bowlers in the world. Often. With absolute command.

 

[Slifer]

You are free to have your opinion whatever that may be You really don't have to feel sorry or believe that Viv is great. As one poster said correctly Viv is over-rated by people who were not fortunate to see him bat live. My guess is, you never saw him bat, outside of youtube videos. Since you used Viv's stats (filtered by opposition) to support the fact that he is over-rated, my point was to show you that Sachin (someone whom you most definitely don't consider over-rated) stats, filtered by the opposing bowler in my case, can be used to support similar claims.

Ultimately it depends on what creates the strongest impression in your mind. Like you, it would most likely be Sachin's batting for most Indians. So for you and most Indians it is the Holy Grail. Since I grew up watching cricket during the golden era of fast bowling (late 70s to early 90s), hostile pace bowling created the strongest impression in my mind.

Lillee-Thommo flattening everyone including English and Windies batting line-ups in the mid-70s was some sight. It was pitiful to see a terrified Bishen Singh Bedi (with a strong batting line-up of Gavaskar, Gaekwad, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Vishwanath etc.) declare his side at some 90+ runs for 5 wickets down in Jamaica for the sheer fear of facing the West Indian pacemen (who were bowling bouncers and occasional beamers) in their 1976 Test series. Similarly, it was appalling to see a super-tough Aussie batting line-up (Boon, Marsh, Dean Jones, Border, Steve Waugh, Healy etc.) being pulverized into submission on an MCG pitch with uneven bounce by Patterson, Ambrose and Marshall in their 88-89 series. The Australian side was a heap of broken bodies at the end of the MCG match. They managed to score 114 and it took every ounce of their courage and skill.

Test cricket, back then, was a completely different sport, a completely different challenge, compared to what it is now. Getting back from the ground in one piece was as big, if not bigger, a priority as keeping your wicket.

For these reasons, I can't appreciate Viv enough for opening the batting against Lillee+Thommo in the latter half of the 75-76 series and then carting them all over the ground, and this despite Viv being a regular middle-order batsman (he had to open partly because opener Greenidge's confidence was annhilated by the ferocity of the pacemen). It requires an astonishing degree of courage and skill to do that. No wonder several cricketers including Imran, Lillee, Botham rate Viv as the greatest. Again, it is their subjective opinion .

Glad to see that Im not the only one who knew that Viv, in like his 2nd test series had to go out and show Greenidge (who was no slouch with the bat at the time) how to put the fear of God into those bowlers

 

[kingjulian]

While everyone else goes ahead and does the same thing to prove their own points...

Touche...

In my defense. I have not done that.

Anyway, Viv was great against fast bowling. Every body and their grandma know that. The courage,braveness and swagger he displayed was outstanding and a sight to behold.

But why use that to dismiss what Tendulkar has achieved. He was no less a batsman in terms courage and bravery. Without bravery and courage he couldn't have survived making a debut against Waqar Younis, Wasim Akram and Imran Khan at the age of 16. In that series he took a number of body blows and refused medical attention even when he was bleeding from the nose, and asked the bowler to carry on. Not many fast bowlers have managed to land a body blow to him after that either. It seems people are looking for a weakness that does not exist.

 

[kingjulian]

Glad to see that Im not the only one who knew that Viv, in like his 2nd test series had to go out and show Greenidge (who was no slouch with the bat at the time) how to put the fear of God into those bowlers

I know this series. The story you say is quite the exaggeration.

Greenidge was woefully out of form in that series, and in fact Fredricks opened with a different middle order bat as opener in each game. Viv Richards walked out to open with him in the last game of the series if i remember right.

If my memory serves me right, i think Kallicharan absolutely destroyed Dennis Lille in one of the games in that series. There is a clip of that on the youtube somewhere. Or is that some other series??

This is what happens when we speak about players we like. There is always a fair degree of viewing with rose tinted glass and nostalgic romanticizing.

Edit: yes i do recall Viv was absolutely awesome when he did open.